KIERAN GILBERT, HOST: Let's return now to the talks around the Coalition of the Willing on Ukraine. The Prime Minister has confirmed he was part of that meeting. He joins me live in the studio. Prime Minister Albanese, thanks for your time.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good to be with you, Kieran.
GILBERT: We've got a big week coming up with European leaders heading to the White House as well. Can you give our viewers a sense of the resolve around the support for Ukraine?
PRIME MINISTER: The resolve is very clear. And last night and into the early hours of this morning – we're at a disadvantage with Australian time zones, of course – but the meeting was convened by Prime Minister Starmer and President Macron. It was attended by almost all of the European leaders, as well as the Prime Minister of Canada, Mark Carney, and Prime Minister Ishiba of Japan. So, it was a very constructive meeting. We heard reports of what had occurred at Anchorage, at Alaska, the Summit. I think everyone was enthusiastic about, of course, pushing and pursuing peace. We heard from President Zelenskyy as well.
GILBERT: You're hopeful of that? Can it be done?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we will wait and see. We know that Mr. Putin has designs on, not just, I think, on Ukraine. And the concern is certainly there. And there is certainly a lack of trust between Mr. Putin and European and other leaders of democracies.
GILBERT: And you said you don't want him to be rewarded.
PRIME MINISTER: But it is – well, it is important that the sort of views that Putin has held – the world has been very clear, that this is an illegal and immoral invasion of a sovereign nation, that the Ukrainian people have shown courage and resilience in resisting a much more powerful neighbour. When the war began, people expected it to go for weeks. It's now gone for years. And that is a great sacrifice, of course, has been made by the Ukrainian people, but also Australia has participated with the rest of the democratic world in providing military support to Ukraine so that they can vie for their sovereignty.
GILBERT: Are you still open to providing peacekeepers?
PRIME MINISTER: What we have said is that if there is peace, which is what we want to see, certainly that's in the interests of Ukraine, but it's also in the interest – Russia, of course, has sacrificed many thousands of their soldiers and this is a drain on the global economy as well. We saw the Russian invasion was one of the major factors behind the inflation spike that we saw, so it had an impact on supermarket shelves right around the world. So, people want to see peace. They also want the sovereignty of Ukraine to be respected.
GILBERT: And would you send in troops?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, not to fight. That has never been a suggestion –
GILBERT: With the Blue Helmets, the peacekeepers?
PRIME MINISTER: If there is a peace and if there is a global response to that in the form of peacekeeping, then we would consider any proposal at the time. That would be a matter for the Cabinet. But certainly Australia's position has been very clear from the beginning, which is that Ukraine sovereignty is important because this isn’t just a struggle about Ukraine. It's also a struggle for the international rule of law. And if a large, more powerful country can just invade a smaller country, then that has implications for stability around the world. So, Australia has participated, I participated. I spoke in the meeting last night. It was a very constructive meeting. President –
GILBERT: Can you tell us what your message was?
PRIME MINISTER: Consistent with Australia's position that we stand with Ukraine, that we want to see peace in the region. Ukraine must, of course, not have a solution imposed on it. They need to be a part of those negotiations. So, the meeting that will take place in Washington will be President Zelenskyy, but along with European leaders, including the leaders of France, the United Kingdom and Germany.
GILBERT: Are you worried about the message Donald Trump has sent in the last half an hour about no Crimea, no membership of NATO, capital letters saying that's not happening – is that a worry to you?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we will wait and we will wait and see, rather than pre-empt it. It is a good thing that the President of the United States has been an advocate for peace in the region. That's a good thing. That's what everyone wants to see. The Ukrainian people, though, as a sovereign nation, can't be excluded from a say. And that's why the US President, President Trump, has advocated bringing the parties together. At some stage it has to happen.
GILBERT: We'll get to the Economic Roundtable in a moment because obviously that's the big news back home and I definitely want to get your thoughts on that. But while we're on foreign policy, we're seeing these protests across Israel putting pressure internally on Benjamin Netanyahu. When we look at your call for demilitarising Hamas, have you got a way, a mechanism in mind that you think would work to deliver that? Would the Arab League play a role in that?
PRIME MINISTER: The Arab League certainly would need to play a role in that. And they've made it very clear with the historic call that they've made for Hamas to disarm and for Hamas to not play a role in a future Palestinian state, as well as a very clear declaration of condemnation of what occurred, the atrocity of October 7th.
GILBERT: And so in terms of the, imposing that on the Israelis, do you think the UN and that UNGA, UN General Assembly meeting next month, will say to the Israelis that 'you've got to shift, that this is something that we're committed to with a two state solution, and you've got to pause settlements'? Is that your hope?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the world has been calling for a two state solution. It's been a bipartisan position here in Australia for decades. One of those states is Israel. It needs to continue to exist, but exist in a secure way with its security assured, with recognition by the countries around Israel, in the Middle East, recognising its right to exist as a majority Jewish state. In return as well, a Palestinian state must be demilitarised, can have no role for Hamas, there needs to be reform of governance as well. And the international community are saying we just can't continue with the cycle of violence that has occurred over and over again. Where people are defined, generations are defined by 1967 War, 1973 War, first Intifada, second Intifada and then October 7th. What we need –
GILBERT: And when you talk about –
PRIME MINISTER: What we need is a realisation of the vision that was there from the very beginning, which is the creation of two states. Because it's very clear that the only way that you get peace and security in the region is with security for Israel, but also with the legitimate aspirations of Palestinian people for their own state to be realised.
GILBERT: When you talk about the governance question, though, that immediately comes to mind is Mahmoud Abbas. He's 89 years old, he's been, it’s fair to say, notoriously corrupt. Certainly that's the view of many Palestinians. You need to, as an international community, surely we need to move beyond the Palestinian Authority pretty quickly too, or at least the current leadership?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that's one person. The Palestinian Authority is a whole government and they, of course, the PLO recognised Israel as part of the Oslo Accords. So, this goes back a long time. Quite clearly, part of the governance arrangements needs to be people coming through. Mahmoud Abbas obviously has not been elected for some time, but the same thing happened with Hamas, have not had elections for almost 20 years in either Gaza or the West Bank. But the circumstances there, where you have settlements continuing to expand, an increased level of settler violence, it just can't continue that cycle.
GILBERT: Are you worried, though, just finally on this one, that you've done a deal with someone who lacks legitimacy, in Abbas?
PRIME MINISTER: Oh, well, we haven't done any deals. I’ll be very clear. The international community is saying we need a path to peace and security in the Middle East. Now, it's not enough to just say, ‘we'll keep doing exactly what we have been doing, we'll occupy Gaza City, we'll continue the violence, we'll continue to have people who are in circumstances that are unlivable’. Everyone can see what Gaza looks like on their TV screens. And we need to, as an international community, not just sit back. No one's saying this is easy. If it was easy, it would have happened for some time. And the truth is that there have been a couple of occasions where a path forward should have been seized, but it didn't occur. This time around, you are having the international community overwhelmingly just saying we need a pathway. And for the people who are saying this is the wrong direction, they need to come up with an alternative pathway, because quite clearly at the moment, it is not providing full peace. And the idea that you just relocate an entire nation, which some have suggested, is obviously not tenable.
GILBERT: On the pathway back home now, and the Economic Roundtable starts tomorrow. You've got, I mean, the 94 seats in the Lower House. The poll today says, you know, I don't know if you can get a honeymoon a second time, but it looks like that honeymoon's there as well in the polls. Do you have to seize the opportunity for proper reform now?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we are engaged in reform across the board, whether it be the transition to the clean energy economy, whether it be in child care, the aged care reforms, the biggest reforms this century were passed at the end of last year. We're engaged in delivering on the Gonski vision of making sure that every student gets proper resourcing of their school, whether public or private. We're engaged with reforming the health system in primary health care with the tripling of bulk billing incentive, and importantly, the urgent care clinics that have now had 90 of them opened, 1.5 million Australians getting that care they need, the creation of that intermediate care between the emergency department of a hospital and your local GP. So, we're engaged as well, of course –
GILBERT: They want you to do more, though. People want you to do more.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we're elected with a mandate and we're elected with a strong mandate, quite clearly, but we're certainly not complacent. And one of the things that we've seen just in the last week, the figures now that we have, where we inherited in 2022, inflation on the rise. A 6 in front, and rising. Interest rates beginning to increase. Wages going backwards, quarter after quarter, after quarter. And now what we're seeing is that inflation is down to just a little bit above 2, right at the bottom of the RBA band. Interest rates have begun to fall. Three reductions this year. Unemployment fell last week with more than 20,000 jobs created –
GILBERT: It sounds like a good foundation to launch into another phase of reform, if it's all looking good?
PRIME MINISTER: It is. It is a good foundation. And one of the things I'm looking forward to coming out of the Roundtable is the promotion of ideas and dialogue. It's a good thing. There's the old saying that I quite like, which is that if you're the smartest one in the room, you're in the wrong room. You know, you need to engage with people. We have people from the business community, the union movement, civil society groups coming in and all contributing in the right spirit. We need to engage. One of the things that's defined, I hope, my Prime Ministership is that we're an inclusive Government, we are open to engagement and that is how you bring people with you as well on that journey of reform. You don't just spring things. And that is something that my Government is determined to do.
GILBERT: Anything significant, major tax overhauls and so on would go to the next election?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, things go through our Cabinet. This isn't – there's a meeting in the Cabinet room, it's not a meeting of the Cabinet. So, Government will make decisions. There's a range of things that could be done immediately. There are some things that will feed into budget processes through our normal way that we operate. And there are other things that might be longer term. The job of reform is never done, Kieran. We have a clear policy agenda, but we've also said that's not the limit of our ambition. So, we're not saying people aren't allowed to raise things, we're saying raise whatever you like. We'll have that debate not just in the room, but importantly out there as well.
GILBERT: One of the things I know that Labor is proud of is the NDIS, and it's one of those things that you and I have discussed many times about the sustainability of it. And I know many Australians support it because their family members and so on are on it. But one in six boys aged six years old on it. Sounds odd, sounds out of whack. Are the medical professionals maybe getting it wrong in some of the diagnoses?
PRIME MINISTER: I think the system clearly needs to be looked at. We've done that. We've got the expenditure heading towards the interim objective of 8 per cent growth, not a reduction. 8 per cent growth is substantial. We need to make sure the system's sustainable. And the NDIS was never envisaged that 40 per cent of the population would be on the NDIS. It's about giving people support who need it. And that is why making it sustainable will ensure that that can occur into the future.
GILBERT: Indeed. And you've got to go. You and Jim – on the same page?
PRIME MINISTER: Absolutely. And we’re –
GILBERT: You’re not trying to pull him back, you know, some analysis is saying you're trying to rein him in?
PRIME MINISTER: No, no, no. That's people who are bored and looking for something. I did have a laugh last week. I got asked in an interview, ‘have you had a meeting with Jim Chalmers this week?’ Well, here's breaking news. We had another meeting this morning. It's called the Cabinet. We meet all the time and we're engaged in reform. One of the things that defines my Government is the unity that is there. That sense of purpose as well. And that contrasts with the Liberals fighting each other over Net Zero and over a range of other issues. The Nationals fighting each other with people openly. Whether it is Andrew Hastie openly saying he wants to be leader. Barnaby Joyce and Michael McCormack getting stuck into David Littleproud. And that's before you get into the Nats fighting the Libs. You know, it's a bit of a – it is what it is. But my job –
GILBERT: You must hate seeing that.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, my job is not to worry about that. My job is to get on with providing good Government, and I have a fantastic team, and I'm proud of what we have done. But we know there's much more to do.
GILBERT: We appreciate you making the time. Thanks for coming in.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks, Kieran.