DAVID SPEERS, HOST: Prime Minister, welcome.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good to be with you, David.
SPEERS: How was lunch with the King?
PRIME MINISTER: It was splendid. He is someone who is very interested in Australia, interested in the affairs of the world, and it's always a pleasure to talk with His Majesty. I've got to develop a relationship with him over recent years, and he was a very gracious host. I regarded it as a great personal honour to receive the invitation to Balmoral Castle. A personal honour, but really an honour for Australia as well.
SPEERS: There is all sorts of protocols around what you can and can't say, but can you give us any insight into what you discussed?
PRIME MINISTER: We discussed the full range of issues. We discussed events in Australia, but also the context of the uncertainty that's there in the world.
SPEERS: Donald Trump?
PRIME MINISTER: Well I don't go into any of the specifics, but we discussed world affairs, his views. He's always interested in what's happening in Australia and what our views are of the Australian Government. And we also had a rather wonderful lunch as well. So it was just a very good catch up and a great honour to be there. Balmoral Castle is quite a special place.
SPEERS: The last Prime Minister who went there to Balmoral was Paul Keating back in 93 and during that visit he told the Queen that his plan was to have a referendum on a republic, ditch the monarchy. I assume nothing like that came up today?
PRIME MINISTER: No, and I think I've made it clear that I wanted to hold one referendum while I was Prime Minister, and we did that.
SPEERS: And that's it?
PRIME MINISTER: We did that.
SPEERS: So one referendum the entire time you're Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER: We did that, and I think, we're concentrating on cost of living and on making a real, practical difference to people's lives. We –
SPEERS: Nonetheless, does it strike you as strange at all, that you as the Prime Minister of Australia, have come here the other side of the world, we're in Scotland, to visit the King of Australia?
PRIME MINISTER: Well of course, he is fully aware that I support an Australian as our Head of State, but I also respect the decisions which have been made and our system of government, and I think that's important. If you look at the way that I conduct myself, I always support the institutions which are there. I think that's important as Australia’s Prime Minister.
SPEERS: What role does the Monarchy play in today's Australia? What does it bring to us?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I certainly think that Sam Mostyn is doing a fantastic job, Her Excellency, as Australia's Governor General, as the representative in Australia. Representing Australia to other countries in our region, but also around Australia as well. She's someone who is very active.
SPEERS: Sure, but what about the Royal Family?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the Royal Family, I think, are given a great deal of respect. Their Majesties, when they visited Australia recently, King Charles and Queen Camilla, were very well received. They work hard, they're interested in our place in the world. They're very interested in the Commonwealth. And CHOGM was held, of course, in the Pacific, in our region last year, and I think they are respected.
SPEERS: So you're nearing the end of what's been a jam packed week and a bit.
PRIME MINISTER: It's been pretty busy.
SPEERS: You had recognising Palestinian statehood, reviving a bid for Australia to win a seat on the UN Security Council, we've been meeting and drawing closer, I think, to the UK and Canada and France –
PRIME MINISTER: Investor Roundtable in New York.
SPEERS: All of these things. I'm just wondering, are you trying to, do you see a greater or broader role for Australia on the international stage, beyond the sort of regional focus that I think was dominant in your first term?
PRIME MINISTER: Australia punches above our weight, that’s very clear to me when I have the honour of representing Australia in international forums. I think we primarily have to concentrate on our region in the Pacific, with ASEAN, I think that is where our focus should be. But we have three pillars, essentially, to our international affairs - our alliance with the United States, our regional engagement, but the third as well is our support for multilateralism, of which we have a proud history. And part of that is that in today's world, the land war in Europe with the Russian invasion of Ukraine has made a difference to the price of goods on supermarket shelves in Australia because of energy crisis that arose in part out of that.
SPEERS: It all flows through.
PRIME MINISTER: And that's why we can't afford to be isolationists. That's why we have to be concerned about the state of the world.
SPEERS: I guess what I'm getting at is, given the uncertainty too around Trump's America, are you seeking to draw closer to like-minded countries, the UK and Canada in particular?
PRIME MINISTER: In itself, of course, the UK, historically we have such an important relationship. Canada, under Prime Minister Carney, I got to know him quite well in a short period of time. We have very similar economies, so I think we can learn off each other. Issues like critical minerals have been discussed in recent days with the UK and with Canada, as well as of course the defence and security relationship with the UK is very important indeed. And support for free and fair trade in the region as well. We're currently the chair of the CPTPP, and we will have the APEC Summit in the next month.
SPEERS: Do you feel though, that with these like-minded countries, you need to be standing up for the rule of law on behalf of middle powers, democracies who do believe in the rule of law?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the United Nations address was a real opportunity for us to put Australia's philosophical position, if you like, about our place in the world and the way that we want the world to operate, and the rule of law is important that there be guardrails. And the fact that the Russian invasion of Ukraine is perhaps a very acute example of where the international rule of law, if it's allowed to just occur, a more powerful nation attacking a sovereign nation in the way that that occurred. Australia has an interest in upholding international norms and rules.
SPEERS: You attended a conference in London yesterday of progressive leaders, and you also expressed concern about the rise of populist organisations like Nigel Farage’s Reform Party here in the UK. Why do you think Reform is so popular right now here?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I think the world is very much turbulent at the moment, and it is the case that sometimes people look for easy answers that their lot in life is difficult because of people who aren't like them. And the politics of grievance, of course, are always easy. It's easier to tear things down than it is to build them up. The job of social democrats is to build things, to create, to appeal to optimism and hope, which is a powerful force. But sometimes fear can be also a force that gets support.
SPEERS: Are some of these concerns, particularly migration, are they legitimate?
PRIME MINISTER: Oh look, people's concerns always have to be considered and respected. You've got to go to where people are and the way that they are thinking, you can't just dismiss that. You have to respond to that and indeed try to anticipate that in some ways. So I think that that's important. That was part of the discussion yesterday, was very much philosophical, if you like, about the way that the world can move forward in a more united way.
SPEERS: Nigel Farage, you seemed to suggest yesterday, that you wouldn't be prepared to meet. Is that right? Is that the best approach to someone you disagree with?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I met yesterday with the Leader of the Labour Party and the Leader of the Opposition.
SPEERS: Of the Conservative Party.
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, that's right.
SPEERS: But would you meet Nigel Farage?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I haven't been invited to meet Nigel Farage, and you know, I'm aware of his views. We would have very different views. Were he ever to be in a position, I respect people's positions, and I engage with them. But I think, yesterday I was pleased to meet Kemi Badenoch, the Leader of the Conservative Party, and a range of her Shadow Ministers, her Chief of Staff. We had a very constructive meeting.
SPEERS: What about the speech that Donald Trump gave to the United Nations? You were there, you were sitting in the audience listening along. It was a rather extraordinary speech, and he did talk a lot about migration as well. He suggested that uncontrolled migration is sending Western countries to hell. What do you think about the way he's approaching this issue? Does he also concern you?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it's not my job to give a critique of other leaders. My job is to govern in Australia's national interest, and part of what we've done is to be strong on borders without being weak on humanity. That’s the approach –
SPEERS: But if Nigel Farage concerns you, doesn’t Donald Trump?
PRIME MINISTER: I don't run, do a running commentary, on leaders of other nations. I respect the positions that they have. The truth is that around the world people want, including in Australia, people want borders to be controlled. They want control over their migration system. That's a way that you build support for migration as well. It's why my government has been concerned about that. It's why we've continued Operation Sovereign Borders. It's why no one who has arrived by boat or attempted to arrive by boat since I've been Prime Minister has been permitted to stay in Australia.
SPEERS: You said just a moment ago that Australia does need to stand up for the rule of law. Again with Donald Trump, what about the way the Justice Department in the United States is now being used to go after his political enemies, the former FBI Director James Comey, the latest example of this, and the President has said there will be others, were his words. Is there a point at which a line is crossed, and countries like Australia need to speak up about this?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what we don't need to do is to interfere in the domestic politics of another nation. What we need to do is to stand up for our own values in the way that we govern Australia. And we do that, we speak out about what our values are, and we govern Australia accordingly.
SPEERS: That means no criticism of this sort of behaviour?
PRIME MINISTER: What it means is that we respect the fact that elected governments are allowed to govern their own nations. And I'm not going to run a running commentary on US domestic politics, because my priority is governing Australia in the interests of Australians.
SPEERS: You'll meet Donald Trump in a few weeks, you've secured that meeting at the White House. I'm just wondering about how, Prime Minister, you'll approach this. Some leaders have gone in with a big offering or a gesture. Sir Keir Starmer had the letter of invitation from the King for a state visit, Qatar famously offered to donate a 747 jet. Do you feel like you need to make some sort of offering to Donald Trump?
PRIME MINISTER: No, I feel like I need to treat him with the respect that the President of the United States deserves, and I expect that to be returned. And certainly the indications are, we've had five either phone conversations or greetings in person now, and they've all been warm, constructive, positive and optimistic. And I think it is in both Australia's interests and the interests of the United States that we continue to have a good relationship, and I'm sure that we will.
SPEERS: I guess Australia is offering access to critical minerals here. Can you explain what exactly is on the table here? Is it special access to the stockpile that you've promised to build? Special access to the US over others, like China?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we'll have those negotiations with President Trump in person, with respect, David, rather than on Insiders.
SPEERS: It is Australia’s resources –
PRIME MINISTER: But obviously Australia has everything that is in demand, almost the entire periodic table. And whether you're looking at lithium with the reserves that we have, or cobalt or copper or vanadium, we have great resources. We also have the capacity to value add as well. And we went to the election saying that we would have a critical minerals reserve, and that that would be a way in which we ensured that markets couldn't be manipulated in the way that nickel, for example, has been manipulated, the market there, to alter prices and therefore to reinforce dominance, in that case of China, in that market.
SPEERS: And is the US being offered something others aren't being offered by Australia?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we'll have those discussion with the United States.
SPEERS: And you also talked critical minerals with the British PM yesterday.
PRIME MINISTER: Absolutely.
SPEERS: You referenced some sort of defence, or obviously they have a defence component to them. Could critical minerals become a third pillar of AUKUS here in some way?
PRIME MINISTER: What they could become, certainly as a part of Pillar Two, by definition, because a range of the equipment, what's required for defence of all of our three nations will be critical minerals will play a role in that.
SPEERS: And would that be your preference to frame this as an AUKUS initiative to mine and process those critical minerals?
PRIME MINISTER: No, this is a bit different, but there's a connection, obviously, with defence, but there's also civil use as well of critical minerals and rare earths. We have an abundance, and one of the things that we want to do is to make sure that we don't just dig things up, our resources, export them, watch someone else value add and then import them back at greater prices. What we have an opportunity to do, in part because of clean energy, because of the space that we have, is to have our resources dug up, yes, but value adding in Australia. A reserve that makes sure that we can play a role in international markets as well, to stop manipulation, particularly by state enterprises, and that is something that we are very consciously doing. Learning from some of the errors, perhaps, of the past. I mean, there's not a solar panel in the world that doesn't have intellectual property in it that was developed in Australia. We weren't good at commercialising the opportunities. So what we're talking about here is not giving anything to anyone, even our friends. What we are talking about is making sure that we maximise the return to Australia of that, but that we also make sure that we play a role in those international markets.
SPEERS: Final one, you're off to the UK Labour Party Conference tomorrow where you'll be giving an address. Are you attending as Prime Minister, as Labor leader, or a little bit both?
PRIME MINISTER: Well I'm always, everyone is a part of their title. And Sir Keir Starmer, of course, has invited me to come to the UK. One of the things I'll be doing tomorrow as well is to meet further with John Healey and with other people in the administration as well. The UK relationship is really important. Every Minister in the UK Government will be in Liverpool tomorrow. I'll be there too, and I’ll be meeting and engaging with them. Helping to promote what we've done in the past week, which is to support the social media ban, of course, we had an important event there. The investor meeting that we had in New York, the engagement we've had with the private sector here and in the United States as well, before we head to the UAE, where I'll be the next day, on Monday, talking as well there. The Free Trade Agreement that we've established with the UAE opens up the Middle East market for Australia. Everything that we do in international forums is about helping domestically, create jobs, boost our economy, strengthen it, and to make a difference to the people that we want to represent, the Australian people.
SPEERS: The trip's not done yet, is it Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER: Not yet.
SPEERS: We thank you for joining us.
PRIME MINISTER: It's been a busy time.