RAF EPSTEIN, HOST: The Prime Minister Anthony Albanese is in Melbourne. Good morning. Thank you for coming in.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good morning. Wonderful to be here, Raf.
EPSTEIN: I do just want to start with this little altercation outside court. I just wonder, pretend for a moment you're not well known as a Prime Minister. If you walk down the street, saw a neo-Nazi leader who you knew off TV, would you say something?
PRIME MINISTER: I don't want to encourage altercations on the street. So, the truth is I am the Prime Minister and therefore won't encourage what could lead to altercations. We know that this guy, of course, I have nothing but contempt for both - not so much him, it's not personal - it's his ideology, it's what he stands for, which is hate.
EPSTEIN: Can I just play you a little bit of what our stranger, his name's David. People will hear from him later on. I just want to play you a little bit of what he said about why he did say something.
[AUDIO GRAB]
DAVID: Hate's really toxic. It's really contagious and it doesn't take a lot of thought.
[AUDIO GRAB ENDS]
EPSTEIN: What do you think?
PRIME MINISTER: He's right. You know, fear and hate, easy sentiments to propagate. And for people to say your problem in life is because people who don't look like you or don't have the same faith as you, just to promote division. And it's one of the things that we're seeing a rise in -
EPSTEIN: Is that what One Nation does? Do they propagate hate?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, they certainly propagate division.
EPSTEIN: Racism?
PRIME MINISTER: They propagate division and have put out for a long period of time from the first speech of Pauline Hanson where she said Asians were swamping the country, through to, she's gone through different groups of people, First Nations people, people of Muslim faith, Pauline Hanson's -
EPSTEIN: She said, 'actually, we're in danger now of being swamped by Muslims'. That was her speech when she first got into the Senate -
PRIME MINISTER: Well, Pauline Hanson will always promote division.
EPSTEIN: Is it division or is it racism and prejudice?
PRIME MINISTER: Oh, look, it certainly is prejudice. And it is division that doesn't provide any solutions. All that it does is pit Australian against Australian. And overwhelmingly we're a country that is harmonious, we're a country that have benefited from the fact that all of us are either migrants or descendants of migrants, except for First Nations people. And Pauline Hanson is someone who never comes up with any solutions, just identifies and promotes grievance.
EPSTEIN: So, if that's true, if I accept that as the premise of my question, if she doesn't have any solutions, why is she the biggest party after Labor in the polls?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I think in part there's two reasons for that. One is, there is globally a response to the complexity of today's society. People looking for answers, people under cost of living pressure, people who want to be more successful, who are doing it tough, they appeal to that and provide some sense of being against the status quo. The other thing that's occurred is a - and that's promoted and helped by social media and by algorithms and pushing towards more extreme left or extreme right positions -
EPSTEIN: We seem to have come late to it as a nation. It's happened in a lot of other places.
PRIME MINISTER: It has.
EPSTEIN: It's only happened here right now. Why?
PRIME MINISTER: It has. Well, one of the things that's occurred, of course, is the mess on the mainstream conservative side of politics, which people are looking at that and saying, 'well, they can't even govern their own party, so how can they be an alternative government?' And I think Liberals fighting each other, Nationals fighting each other, Liberals fighting Nationals and Nationals joining One Nation -
EPSTEIN: But the Liberal voters are looking for an alternative. They're not coming to you, so, in the past -
PRIME MINISTER: Well, some of them are, Raf. We got 94 seats and if you look at our primary vote, not only increased in the House of Representatives, but importantly in the Senate, we actually had a higher vote than we did in the House of Reps. So, for a lot of people in seats, I'm sure in Melbourne, like Kooyong and Goldstein, they parked their vote somewhere else but voted for Labor in the Senate.
EPSTEIN: I want to ask you this question without any prejudice because they've risen significantly in the polls, One Nation. Is any of that on you? Is any of that because of things you have or have not done?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I'm the Prime Minister, so I'm responsible for everything that the government does. And what I want is for people to be a part of mainstream politics. I think that elections will continue to be won from the centre left or the centre right. I don't want to see a rise of hard right views, obviously, so we'll continue to engage as well. But we have seen overseas as well, as you say, Australia's probably a bit later to come to this.
EPSTEIN: Just one more on the hard right views. There's lots of other things to ask you on. I wanted to get to some listener calls. But Andrew Hastie, who's prominent in the Liberal Party, we'll just call him prominent for now. He reckons migrants have to have what he calls 'Judeo Christian values'. Is that right or wrong?
PRIME MINISTER: Oh, wow. Look. Andrew Hastie will continue to put forward comments as he undermines, no doubt, Angus Taylor. This is just a revolving door -
EPSTEIN: Is there anything more than undermining his -
PRIME MINISTER: This is a revolving door of views. Andrew Hastie has some very hard line views -
EPSTEIN: And is that racism or prejudice?
PRIME MINISTER: I don't think - I'm not about to add to the circus Raf, which you're inviting me to do. What we actually need is less rhetoric and more reasoned argument. Andrew Hastie, someone that I actually get on okay with and you can have a discussion with him. We have a different worldview. And I think he has a worldview that is completely out of touch with modern Australia and what modern Australia represents. He's someone who has searched for relevance, I think, overseas rather than here. And one of the things that we don't need to do is to adopt views because they have been populist overseas. What we need to do is find the Australian way. We are a successful country, overwhelmingly, and people who have come to Australia are making an extraordinary contribution and overwhelmingly they come motivated by just wanting a better life for themselves and a better life for their kids to come. And one of the things that I say is that if people do have any prejudice or hatreds when they come here, they leave them at the Customs Hall. That's the Australian covenant, that we respect each other for who people are and that we get on with each other.
EPSTEIN: 1300 222 774 is the phone number. The Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese is who you are listening to on 774. Let's get to a few calls. I've got plenty of my own questions, but Andrew has one in Parkdale. Andrew, go for it. What do you want to ask him?
ANDREW, LISTENER: PM, what's the Federal Government going to do to break the corruption cycle on the Big Build as the State Government is really washing its hands of this and not making any real progress?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I don't think that is right. So, I don't accept the premise. What we've done is to put the CFMEU into administration. That's the strongest possible thing that we could do. There have literally been dozens of people who were organisers, anyone who was found to be engaged in inappropriate conduct has been sacked. People removed from work sites and from that industry. It does need to be cleaned up. We inherited a situation where John Setka, to name the leader of the CFMEU here, and his cohort had been allowed to increase their power and influence over a long period of time. I, when I became Labor Leader expelled John Setka from the Labor Party -
EPSTEIN: Can I just take you back to Andrew's question? Maybe what he's asking is do you think the State Government needs to do more?
PRIME MINISTER: I think they are taking action.
EPSTEIN: Are they doing enough?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, they're doing what they can, but importantly what we have done is to intervene and that's been supported with the full support of State Governments, whether they be Labor Governments or Coalition Governments across the states.
EPSTEIN: The Age has a story today that the Labor Party received a whole lot of donations around the May '22 election. So, that's the election that you were Opposition Leader, became PM. That five companies gave money to Labor during that campaign, and they've all had people associated with those companies named by Geoffrey Watson. Should Labor give that money back?
PRIME MINISTER: Those are matters for the organisation. I haven't seen the article, but you know there'll be, The Age will have stories -
EPSTEIN: Should Labor look at that and think about giving it back?
PRIME MINISTER: It's a matter of the organisation. I have a job as Prime Minister of the country. I don't run the organisational wing of the party.
EPSTEIN: I will get back to more calls. In fact, I wanted to ask about, I wanted to ask about housing. I think John's got a question that's related, in Pakenham. What do you want to ask John?
JOHN, LISTENER: Oh, good morning Raf and Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER: Good morning, John.
JOHN: I'm a pensioner, I'm a pensioner and you know it's a bit of a struggle and I wonder why I have to subsidise those who negative gear and claim franking credits.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, if you're a pensioner then you're not subsidising them, John.
JOHN: I pay tax.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, okay, most pensioners don't pay tax so excuse me there, but these are systems that have been in place for a long period of time. We'll continue to engage when it comes to tax. One of the things that we're doing and I'm, I'm certain if you're a pensioner then you wouldn't be a high income earner, that you'll be getting a tax cut on July 1 this year and another tax cut on July 1 next year. That's our priority when it comes to tax.
EPSTEIN: Related issue to negative gearing and what John raised - no one, I've just watched your interview on ABC TV. I've watched the Treasurer's interviews. None of you are ruling out winding back some of the discounts for investors on Capital Gains Tax -
PRIME MINISTER: Because it's a game, Raf, and it's played every year in the lead up to the Budget.
EPSTEIN: But you do talk about intergenerational problems -
PRIME MINISTER: Equity.
EPSTEIN: Intergenerational equity. That'd be a way to tackle it, right?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, intergenerational equity we are tackling in a range of ways. Those income tax cuts, the 20 per cent cut in student debt, the Paid Prac for people to go into nursing and those professions, the $10,000 incentives for construction apprentices and electrical. After this interview, I'll be going to a TAFE here in Melbourne. Free TAFE, 725,000 Australians, overwhelmingly young Australians, have benefited from that.
EPSTEIN: Just a quick couple of questions just on tobacco. One of the Treasury officials, a Deputy Secretary, said that the Treasury is doing work on the elasticity of demand for tobacco. You know, the Federal Government has a huge tobacco tax. We've got, I think, the most expensive cigarettes in the world. Would you think about freezing the excise on tobacco because it automatically goes up again?
PRIME MINISTER: You asked me about a budget measure and those matters will be dealt with in the Budget. One of the things we did last week, Raf, was to freeze the excise on beer. First time in 40 years. We've frozen that for two years. And that's just -
EPSTEIN: It's just that we've got, we've got the most expensive cigarettes in the world. We have tobacco fires constantly, firebombings all the time -
PRIME MINISTER: We also have, Raf, a big decline from when you and I were young. The smoking rates were a lot higher than they are today.
EPSTEIN: Yes.
PRIME MINISTER: And what that has resulted in is now, as someone of my age, so many people aren't around now, literally due to cancer, with health issues associated as well. So, there is two reasons why that was put in place. It's not just about revenue, it's also about sending a message on health. And when it comes to illegal tobacco, we're spending a lot of money as well. A lot of those taxes are going into clamping down on illegal tobacco and the criminals associated with it.
EPSTEIN: Just one other thing to check off with you, PM. The Australians leaving or trying to leave Syria, they've got links to those Islamic State fighters. The ABC's been told they've got Australian passports. Can you confirm if they do?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I can't confirm anything about individuals. What I can say is that we're providing absolutely no support and we are not repatriating people. We have no sympathy, frankly, for people who travelled overseas in order to participate in what was an attempt to establish a caliphate to undermine, destroy our way of life. And so, as my mother would say, you make your bed, you lie in it. It's unfortunate that children are impacted by this as well, but we are not providing any support. And if anyone does manage to find their way back to Australia, then they'll face the full force of the law, if any laws have been broken.
EPSTEIN: I know you've got a head off. I'm happy to take people's calls in response to everything that we've raised, but I'm very conscious the news is often quite dark and it's about all of the bad news. What reasons would you give people for being optimistic?
PRIME MINISTER: That we're the best country on Earth. That overwhelmingly, unlike every other advanced economy, we didn't go into recession or have a quarter of economic contraction. Compare the state of our economy with New Zealand, for example, and what they've gone through. We've created 1.2 million jobs have been created since we've been in office. Inflation is too high. It's got a three in front of it, but it had a six in front of it just a few years ago when we were elected. 1.2 million new jobs created. We're doing what we can as well on cost of living. And we live in a great country. I mean, this city is shining today. And, you know, I'm so proud of what we've been able to achieve. And with measures, just to name one more recent one, the social media ban is once again Australia leading the world like we have with Medicare, giving women the vote, compulsory superannuation. These measures, we punch way above our weight globally, we're respected. And it's one of the things, I'm always proud to represent Australia on the international stage, because we are the best country on earth, we should cherish it and make sure we nurture it, look after it and not take it for granted.
EPSTEIN: Do you remember the first time you saw Robert Duvall in a film?
PRIME MINISTER: I do.
EPSTEIN: Which film?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, would have to be the Godfather.
EPSTEIN: Oh, right, of course. Which is Tommy Hagen.
PRIME MINISTER: I'm a fan of Godfather. 1, 2 and 3.
EPSTEIN: And 3?
PRIME MINISTER: And 3.
EPSTEIN: The most controversial thing you said this morning.
PRIME MINISTER: Indeed. Well, I think it's a great movie. It's -
EPSTEIN: Okay. I don't have time -
PRIME MINISTER: Not up there. They didn't win the Academy Award -
EPSTEIN: I don't have time to tell you the reasons you're wrong about Godfather 3.
PRIME MINISTER: No, no, it's fantastic.
EPSTEIN: Thank you for coming in.
PRIME MINISTER: "Real power cannot be given, it must be taken."
EPSTEIN: "Every time I try to get out, they bring me back in". There you go. We'll drag you back into the studio. Thanks for coming in.
PRIME MINISTER: Fantastic, Raf.
EPSTEIN: The Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese.