RAF EPSTEIN, HOST: We're joined now by the Prime Minister at ten minutes past nine. Anthony Albanese. Good morning. Well, I think - no, have we got you there, PM?
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Yep.
EPSTEIN: We do now. We do now. Can hear you. Oh, good, good, good, good. The technology's working. Even though you're attacking the tech giants. For this to be a success, how many kids will need to lose their accounts?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it's already a success. The fact that we're talking about this, the fact that families are taking back control, the fact that Australia is leading the world in saying, you know, 'enough is enough, we want children to have a childhood'. We want parents to have peace of mind over what their sons and daughters are looking at and getting exposed to. And the fact that we are recognising that just as technology can be a liberating force has brought many benefits, we need to make sure that humans stay in control. And that's really what this is. This has been driven not by governments, it's been driven by parents who've taken personal tragedies of losing their sons or daughters -
EPSTEIN: Yes.
PRIME MINISTER: And channelling that trauma into making a difference so that others don't go through the tragic circumstances that they've had to deal with.
EPSTEIN: So, we've spoken about these issues. You've spoken about these issues a lot. I'm not sure if you can nominate that as a single measure of success, but if I can just get back to my question on a measure of success. Maybe, let's say half of the teenagers in this country got kicked off social media, would that be a signifier of success?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it will be more than that, I'm certain of that. We are asking the tech companies will have to go to the eSafety Commissioner and indicate number of accounts that were online on 9th of December, yesterday, the number that are available on the 11th of December, tomorrow, and every month for the next six months will be reporting in, so that we keep an eye on it, and so that the regulator will be measuring this. We're talking about hundreds of thousands of accounts - 200,000 TikTok accounts, 440,000 Snapchat accounts, around about 150,000 on Facebook and 350,000 on Instagram held by kids between 13 and 15 years old. They'll be paused until they turn 16. We know that this reform is so important, which is why the world is watching Australia today, and why this should be a source of national pride. The fact that we as a country, on a bipartisan basis, it's important to say with Peter Dutton, to give absolute credit where credit's due, came on board for this reform. It was passed through the Parliament very quickly. But on December 10, we've had a year to prepare for this, and importantly, this morning, there would have been conversations around the breakfast table between parents and their children -
EPSTEIN: I'm sure.
PRIME MINISTER: There'll be conversations taking place while we're having a discussion on radio between teachers and students as well, in classrooms. This is so such an important reform and it will make a difference not just to the young people who are between those ages today, it will make a difference to generations to come as well.
EPSTEIN: Ok, so confident that more than 50 per cent of the teenagers with an account yesterday won't be there in the near future. The Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, is who you're listening to on 774. So PM, you mentioned the regulator's going to ask social media companies what's going on. Do they need to also - or how are we going to know that teenagers aren't having a chat on a porn site, on a gambling site, that they're using a VPN, a virtual private network? How will we know how many of the kids are doing that?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the eSafety Commissioner doesn't just have this job. Julie Inman Grant has been doing a fantastic job at looking across the board. How do we keep people safe? How do we engage in the range of issues and threats really is what some of what can occur online is -
EPSTEIN: So, sorry to interrupt here, but are you saying that she may, the eSafety Commissioner might be able to measure how many kids are, say, using a VPN to try and get around it? Does she have ways of doing that?
PRIME MINISTER: She has a whole range of ways in which she can examine what is going on online. We doubled funding for the eSafety Commissioner and for her to conduct her work. She's someone who was appointed by the former government, reappointed by us, because she is an outstanding, diligent person. She's come under, of course, some pressure. Some of the tech giants, funnily enough, don't like this. They think it should be just, you know, let it rip. They should be allowed to do whatever they want and they ignore the fact that they have a social responsibility to ensure their social license -
EPSTEIN: Can I ask you something about that, PM?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course.
EPSTEIN: She's been called to give evidence in Congress. That's because of pressure from American politicians who like to do what the tech companies want them to do. Does she have to do that? Do you, will you support her if she doesn't want to go and appear before Congress, or do you think she should do that?
PRIME MINISTER: We're a sovereign nation. I support her doing her job for Australia. She's providing written advice to that particular inquiry. But bear in mind there will be people who are supported by some of these big tech companies. We know that that's the case and we know that there'll be a campaign and has been a campaign against this -
EPSTEIN: And sorry, that means she doesn't need to go in person to Congress?
PRIME MINISTER: That's exactly right. She's providing a written submission, and that's fine as far as I'm concerned. You know, we will support our authorities who are doing a job for our country and in particular doing a job for our young people, allowing kids to be kids and for our parents, giving them peace of mind as well. So, this is, this is world leading and importantly as well, what we've seen, particularly since the presentation we did at the United Nations where one of the mothers who'd lost their child, Emma Mason, gave an incredibly powerful speech. But there we had Ursula von der Leyen of the European Union, we had Prime Minister Mitsotakis of Greece, we had Prime Minister Rabuka, we had representatives of dozens of nations. And what we're seeing is Malaysia bringing changes on January 1, in just a few weeks' time. We've seen Indonesia bringing changes. We're seeing the European Union already passing a resolution through their Parliament. We are seeing global action. Our neighbours in New Zealand are acting as well. And there is such a great deal of interest in what we're doing here, because this is a global issue and it is changing the dynamic of young people's experience in life.
EPSTEIN: PM, if I can just get to a few other issues. Anthony Albanese is with you, the Prime Minister of Australia. PM, I got this text from Rosa that she wants me to put directly to you. 'Hi, Raf. Please ask the PM how come he can stand up to the big powerful tech companies overseas but not to the gambling companies here?' What would you say to Rosa?
PRIME MINISTER: We do stand up to them. We've introduced more legislation and changes to stop problem gambling than any government since Federation. We've introduced - Betstop, for example, has seen more than 50,000 people sign up. Problem gambling, there is a problem gambling issue that is real. The government is acting on it -
EPSTEIN: But you still haven't stopped the ads, PM.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what we don't think is a problem is if someone has a bet on the Melbourne Cup, well, that's up to them if they're adults. It is problem gambling that is the problem. Overwhelmingly, the greatest harm is caused by poker machines, not by other forms of gambling, which can cause problems as well. So, we are conducting, going through line-by-line, legislation. As I said, we took substantial action. We acknowledge there is more to do.
EPSTEIN: Just on the travel expenses issues. I know your Minister, Anika Wells, she's referred her expenses to the independent bodies. That's the Independent Parliamentary Expenses Authority. The issue this time around is those family reunions. If that Authority said, 'look, tighten this stuff up', would you agree to that?
PRIME MINISTER: I think it's really important that an independent authority and be just that, that I don't pre-empt what the independent authority thinks, that that would mean it wasn't independent. And so -
EPSTEIN: Now if they're really independent, you could express an opinion. They don't have to agree with you.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, yeah, that changes the whole dynamic, as you're aware, Raf. So, independent authorities should be allowed to act independently. They will do that. The Independent Authority was established after Sussan Ley had to resign over going to the Gold Coast over real estate issues that were, you know, she ended up losing her ministry over that. As a result of that, the former government established an Independent Authority that was supported across the Parliament, supported by us in Opposition and by the former government. And they'll, they'll have a look. But I do want to make this point, Raf, that a sporting, Sports Minister attending sports events should not be surprising. And secondly, is that the Parliament is very different today from what it was when I was elected -
EPSTEIN: Do you think all of those allowances were okay? All the ones she, she took?
PRIME MINISTER: That's a good thing. I think that Anika gave birth to twins while in office. That's something that wasn't happening, you know, decades ago. As a result of that, the Independent Authority has put in place measures to allow some family -
EPSTEIN: Reuniting with a partner over a Grand Final weekend is different to reuniting with the kids, isn't it?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, partners are important as well, and so these things are set independently. And Anika Wells has referred herself to the Authority. They'll have a look at it as is appropriate, and I would have thought that others might do the same as well. We'll wait and see whether that occurs or not. But it's appropriate, the action that Anika has taken.
EPSTEIN: Appreciate your time this morning on a big day. Thank you.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks very much.