RAF EPSTEIN, HOST: Fifty years after The Dismissal, a lot of people, a lot of people focus on the rules of that day. Could a Governor-General sack a PM? But not the current Prime Minister. He was talking about the politics in a speech last night at Old Parliament House. He said ‘an old suffocating conservatism’ had removed a government chosen by the voters. Prime Minister Anthony Albanese is with you on Mornings. Good morning and welcome.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good morning, Raff. Good to be with you.
EPSTEIN: PM, I want to play you the famous moment from the day and get you to sort of respond in the moment. So, let's just listen to the most famous moment from that day.
[AUDIO GRAB]
GOUGH WHITLAM: Well, may we say God save the Queen. Because nothing will save the Governor-General.
EPSTEIN: PM, what do you feel when you hear that?
PRIME MINISTER: I feel that sense of history. Gough Whitlam was the first Labor Prime Minister in 23 years. And I remember from my mother and family, they had a view that their team had won, if you like, after a long period of time in Opposition. And there was a great sense of hope in the country. I think that 1972 was a period in which the country was modernised and brought forward. There was a sense of confidence about Australia's place in the world that Gough Whitlam brought. And they were clearly a flawed government. They made some egregious errors. Their internal processes were diabolical at times. The loans affair brings no credit to anyone involved with it –
EPSTEIN: You still sounded last night though, like sort of ripped off in a way by what the Coalition did, what the Liberal Party did.
PRIME MINISTER: They had won two elections within three years, Gough Whitlam won two majorities in the House of Representatives and wasn't able to serve three years as Prime Minister. And the fact of the intervention by the Governor-General that had a range of technical flaws to it, including the advice from Sir Garfield Barwick that suggested that a government needed to have the support of both houses. Well, the truth is that in Australia's political system it's very rare for a government to have a majority in the Senate. We certainly don't at the moment.
EPSTEIN: And if I can, why did you use language like ‘partisan plot’, ‘cultivating the Governor-General's paranoia’? That's strong language. Why? Why such strong language?
PRIME MINISTER: Because it's precisely what happened. You had the engagement in between Fraser and Kerr, Barwick and Kerr. Barwick providing that advice as the Chief Justice. You had a cultivation of paranoia. Kerr was concerned that he would be replaced by Whitlam and wanted to get in first. He underestimated Gough Whitlam's misplaced faith in the person who Gough Whitlam had appointed as Governor-General. And the fact that Malcolm Fraser was essentially hidden in a separate room of Government House while the Governor-General dismissed the elected Prime Minister is extraordinary. That someone would engage in that behaviour without properly notifying and discussing with the elected Prime Minister in Gough Whitlam what the intentions were of the Governor-General.
EPSTEIN: And I'm curious as well - you're quite passionate about, I mean, it's ancient history in some way, are you fighting the Liberals of 50 years ago because the current batch are too busy fighting themselves?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, they are a mess at the moment. But for me, who was brought up, I say that I was born with three great faiths: South Sydney, the Catholic Church and the Labor Party. It was something that I was born with. Gough Whitlam made a difference to my life through the improved health care, through the Single Parents Payments that he introduced, the work that he did that made a difference to my mother's life and therefore to my life.
EPSTEIN: So, can I get into making a difference to people's lives? On 774, you're listening to the current Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, only using the word current because we're talking about a lot of history here. PM, you mentioned how much of a difference he made in your life just with his actual policies. Some of your colleagues have actually said to me that you're bold on rhetoric, but you're timid on policy. They want you to be bold on policy like Whitlam. What would you say?
PRIME MINISTER: I say that the work that we've put in place, including changing the Single Parents Payment, including the improvement in relations with Asia and with our neighbours, including making sure that we're intervening on the challenge that we are facing at the moment of climate change with the biggest economic transformation in the global economy that we will see –
EPSTEIN: But none of what you are doing is as transformative as what he did, Whitlam did.
PRIME MINISTER: He didn't last for three years. What we are doing is doing things in an orderly, considered way with proper processes. And Gough Whitlam was a great government. After 23 years there needed to be very much rapid change. But one of the things that was learnt from the Whitlam Government by Bob Hawke and Paul Keating and their government was the need for proper Cabinet Government, proper processes, proper engagement with not just internal processes but with policy development as well.
EPSTEIN: Do you think you're being bold on climate change?
PRIME MINISTER: Absolutely we are. We have an ambitious but achievable target. We are seeing a considered approach to it, support for new industries, as well as making sure that energy transformation occurs. But the first ever proper regulation when it comes to emissions of motor vehicles, first time that's ever happened. I tried to do it as Transport Minister in the Rudd and Gillard Governments and wasn't able to get it through.
EPSTEIN: Okay, Anthony Albanese is who you're listening to. We can - interested to know what you make of the PM's current boldness and policies and those things. If I can just come to a few issues around at the moment. We've had more than a few Nazi protests outside the Victorian Parliament. There were Nazis outside the NSW Parliament on the weekend. Do we need to do more to ban masks and to ban Nazi chants like ‘Blood and Honour’?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, in a word, yes. And the NSW Government has said that they're looking at changing laws. Hate has no place in our society. And the sort of vilification that we've seen - the fact that these Nazis in NSW notified the police and were essentially given permission to conduct such a hateful activity is completely unacceptable. And the NSW Premier has made that clear.
EPSTEIN: Do we need to do more to ban masks in Victoria? We don't quite know what Victoria is going to finally do. But do you want a strong law against masks in Victoria?
PRIME MINISTER: Look, I'm not going to notify getting to the eight state and territory law and order decisions, because that's up to state and territory governments. I think that there needs to be –
EPSTEIN: Are you uncomfortable with masks at protests, balaclavas?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course I am. Because what that enables is to encourage activity where people aren't being identified. If people are engaged in legitimate political activity, they shouldn't be frightened of being identified.
EPSTEIN: But it can be a restriction on free speech, can't it? And a lot of people do worry - you might think it's bonkers to worry about facial recognition technology. You might think that's not legitimate. But that's sort of free speech, isn't it, to say, ‘no, I want to wear a mask because I don't want someone to get a copy of my face’?
PRIME MINISTER: Free speech is not about the right to vilify and to engage in antisemitic behaviour, and to encourage hatred and division and violence, which is where this all leads. The fact that there has been, only in recent times, this rise of people openly identifying as Nazis has no place in Australia.
EPSTEIN: The BBC, PM is in a whole lot of trouble, not the least of which the US President Donald Trump is threatening a $1 billion lawsuit. Does the ABC need some more protection from Donald Trump?
PRIME MINISTER: I'm not going to get into those issues. The ABC –
EPSTEIN: There are other people raising those issues about the ABC.
PRIME MINISTER: I'm sure lots of people raise lots of issues. Raf. My job is not to be a commentator on what people might –
EPSTEIN: But there's an editorial in The Australian, and your Government funds the ABC, so it's worth asking you the question.
PRIME MINISTER: We will always defend the ABC. I think the ABC plays a very important role in our democracy. It's independent of government. And its views and what it puts forward from journalists, it plays a very important role in our democracy.
EPSTEIN: And Remembrance Day today, PM, anything, any final thoughts on Remembrance Day?
PRIME MINISTER: It's an important day for us to give thanks to those who've made the ultimate sacrifice in defence of our nation, not just in the historic terms of what the 11th of November represents, but ever since then as well. And to also give our respects to all those who wear our uniform today, those men and women who play a role in defence of Australia, to give them respect. I'll be at the War Memorial here in Canberra. And it's always a solemn day and it's an important day.
EPSTEIN: Thanks for your time.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks very much, Raf.