VIRGINIA TRIOLI, HOST: We're live on ABC Radio Melbourne Facebook page as well, if you'd like to jump on board, you can stream us. You can see myself, good morning, and the Prime Minister of Australia, Anthony Albanese. Good morning to you.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good morning. Good to be in the studio.
TRIOLI: It's great to have you here. I want to kick off with news. Of course, it's very important here in Victoria from yesterday. Why shouldn't there be personal and serious consequences for the man who presided over egregious misuse of power? And that's the word that's been used in the IBAC and the ombudsman's report in this state, and that's Labor Party Leader and Premier, Daniel Andrews. If he says the buck stops with him, why shouldn't there be serious consequences for him?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, Daniel Andrews took really strong action when the 60 Minutes show revealed issues of misuse of taxpayer funds and other issues around branch stalking in Victoria. He and I convened a meeting of the National Executive within 48 hours. People had been expelled, he removed people from his Ministry, we intervene and put Steve Bracks and Jenny Macklin in charge of the Victorian ALP. Thousands of people were removed from the roll, new strict rules were put in place. He took decisive action. He showed leadership. And I think that's what Victorians want to see. And then as a result of the IBAC findings yesterday, he's not only cleaned up the Labor Party, he's taken measures to clean up politics by increasing accountability and making sure that IBAC is responded to appropriately.
TRIOLI: That wasn't my question, though. I mean, if you're going to talk about responsibility, and you've come into this position, as you know, wanting to be the accountability, Prime Minister, with the establishment of a Federal integrity commission, why are there not individual consequences? Whether you've done all that work or not, if you were the person who led and were at the top of the tree for that culture for so many years?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, there have been real consequences for people who were engaged in these activities.
TRIOLI: But for him, for the Leader?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the Leader has shown leadership. That's what you want from a leader.
TRIOLI: But they don't get to inherit the consequences as well? I mean, is it enough to say, 'I apologise'?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, he's done that. He's accepted responsibility as the Premier of Victoria's, as the Leader of the Labor Party. But he hasn't tried to just sweep this under the carpet. He has shown, in my view, really strong leadership. And I believe that the measures that he's taken here in Victoria, the Cabinet decision that was made yesterday, but that comes after the really swift and decisive action that he took. It's a big deal for a Premier to dismiss people from his Government. They weren't just dismissed from the Ministry, they're out of the Labor Party. And that's a very good thing.
TRIOLI: The report revealed that the Premier admitted in secret evidence that he was aware of widespread branch stalking across the board. That reveals a comfort with a rotten culture that surely should trouble us, though. I mean, when we learn that's the phrase that was used, and that was the knowledge that was in his possession for quite some time, isn't that a level of comfort that bothers you?
PRIME MINISTER: No, what he did was then take action against it. And what we know is that the biggest branch stack that I've ever heard of was Malcolm Turnbull when he took over the electorate of Wentworth. Thousands at a time.
TRIOLI: We are going to stick with this subject.
PRIME MINISTER: No, well, branch stalking is a bad thing. When it occurs, you should take action against it. Daniel Andrews did take action, both within the Party and now as a result of government action.
TRIOLI: I want to move on to a number of other topics, but just very quickly, do you think, using your cold political eye here for a second, will this play out, will it have consequences in the November election? Do you think there'll be seat losses or a loss of faith or support for the Labor Party here because of this issue, in particular?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, Daniel Andrews will be seen to have been taking strong action. That contrasts with the sort of dragged out scenarios we've seen over serious issues with people on the other side of politics.
TRIOLI: Again, you're not answering my question here, Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I am. I think that Daniel Andrews deserves to be re-elected. He is someone of integrity. He is someone who I trust. But importantly as well, he's someone who has not only delivered on his promises to take, one, the removal of level crossings that as a Sydneysider coming to Melbourne, it is something that you noticed getting around this great city of Melbourne. It was a massive safety issue. It's something as Transport Minister I was conscious of. We did the Springvale one a fair while ago when I was the Minister. That cost over $300 million, that one project. He has removed more than he said he would. He's getting on with big visionary projects like the Suburban Rail Loop here in Victoria. He's done the Melbourne Metro project. He hasn't received his fair share of funds from the former Federal Government here in Victoria. He has introduced significant social reform, advancing equality for Victorians.
TRIOLI: I have unleashed a campaign speech here.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, he's a mate of mine. I declare an interest here.
TRIOLI: I guess you do.
PRIME MINISTER: And he cooks a mean barbecue as well.
TRIOLI: Let's not get back into the Prime Minister's cooking. We've been through all that. Let's go to another important issue. Rio Tinto has just settled a decade long tax dispute with the Commonwealth, handing over almost $1 billion in unpaid taxes. So, does this open the door for you now? Does the Commonwealth, does the tax department, have specific other companies in its sights now? And are there amounts of money that you believe you can get back from them?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, they do. And we want to make sure that people who have been avoiding paying their fair share of tax do the right thing and that the law is actually imposed.
TRIOLI: So, who comes next? Can you mention names?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the tax office will be doing their job. We will be providing them with all the resources they need. When you talk about a billion dollars from a company that should have been paid that wasn't, you've got to look at the opportunity cost, both in terms of the number of hospital beds that could have funded, the amount of additional university places that could have funded, the infrastructure that could have funded, but also look at the ordinary PAYE taxpayers out there working nine to five, Monday to Friday, or working different hours, who are paying their fair share of tax. That's them being ripped off. So, we want to make sure that people do pay the tax that they're supposed to pay and that companies do their bit as well.
TRIOLI: Over the next couple of years, how much money do you think you could recoup? It would be a nice way to deal with the budget bottom line, wouldn't it? A billion here, a billion there? Pretty soon you're talking about real money.
PRIME MINISTER: It's a handy amount. And one of the measures that we took to the election as well is our multinational tax changes, whereby some companies essentially manipulate where the profits appear globally as a way of minimising their tax. And we're going to take action against that as well.
TRIOLI: Okay. Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, is here with you this morning on Mornings at 18 minutes to nine. You were critical of the previous Government's blame game. That's the phrase that you used then with the states over the management of the pandemic. Do you plan to retain that Government's rather hands off approach leaving most decisions to the states?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we have in this country, of course, federal-state changes. Some things are responsible for the states. They run our hospital system, for example. The Commonwealth is a major provider of funds.
TRIOLI: But you said you wanted to see a more hands-on approach.
PRIME MINISTER: I want to see more consistency. So, if you look at the National Cabinet meeting that we had, just on Saturday morning, I convened that on Friday afternoon when I got back from the Pacific Island Forum. And we had consistent decisions going out there, more consistent messages. One of the things I was critical of was that you had a National Cabinet process where Scott Morrison would give a press conference and then all of the states and territories would say what they were doing individually.
TRIOLI: That's still going on, isn't it?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it didn't happen on Saturday, Virginia. And it didn't happen at the previous meeting either.
TRIOLI: No, but what has happened is that the Commonwealth top doctor, warning that the latest Omicron sub variant poses a significant new threat, that's the word he's used, urging Australians to wear masks indoors. And yet the states are still all leaving it up to us as individuals in their states to decide that for ourselves. That isn't the kind of national consistency that, clearly, Paul Kelly would want to see, or I imagine, listening to your words, that you'd want to see.
PRIME MINISTER: But with respect, it is. Professor Kelly hasn't put forward a plan for mandates or advocated it.
TRIOLI: But he is using strong language.
PRIME MINISTER: He's used the same language that I've seen state premiers use, which is that people should be highly encouraged to wear masks indoors where they're in circumstances where they can't socially distance. And I noticed here at the ABC this morning, that was a practice that was taking place and that I certainly participated in. And that's a good thing.
TRIOLI: Do you think we'll ever be bringing in the 'M word' at some point during what looks like being a long and hard Omicron winter? In some respect or another? And I mean, the mandate, of course.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, none of the premiers or chief ministers were advocating that on Saturday.
TRIOLI: And Paul Kelly is not advocating to you or the Department in any way?
PRIME MINISTER: No, he's not. And the clear decision of the AHPPC, the peak body where you get all the state and territory Chief Health Officers, together with the Chief Medical Officer, Professor Kelly, haven't advocated that to me at all.
TRIOLI: The trouble, sitting in this seat in particular, I've had endless calls from parents, from teachers as well from others, really angry and frustrated at the lack of a consistent approach and a consistent message. It says it puts them in the firing line having to insist or impose the rule on children and on students. You must feel for them. What's your direct advice to them, given there isn't that consistent approach?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, there is consistent approach, Virginia. There is a consistent approach.
TRIOLI: But they feel they need a rule. I mean, you're talking about teachers who work in a situation where rules apply. They need a rule or the students won't follow.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the issue here is, when I spoke to the New South Wales Premier last week, what he said was that there are some mandates in place, and they're in place here too, for public transport, for example. The question is, are people complying with them? And it's no good having a mandate unless it's enforced. And are there people jumping on trams here in Victoria and enforcing the rules, fining people? I don't know that is happening. It's not happening in New South Wales. So, it is difficult for public officers to advocate for a mandate that then isn't really a mandate unless it's enforced. So, you've got to bear that in mind as well. The other thing you need to bear in mind is the mental health aspects of restrictions on people's behaviour. We need to get the balance right. And I think that's something that the Chief Health Officers have borne in mind. I know from Professor Kelly and the meetings I've had with him, and I've met with him regularly as Prime Minister. And we will continue to do so. And my Health Minister, Mark Butler, will be convening meetings every week whilst we're seeing this surge occurring. It's expected to continue to increase just over the next few couple weeks, but then to go in decline next month, towards September. And we certainly hope that's the case. Australians have been magnificent in the way that they've looked after each other during this pandemic. And I'd encourage people to continue to do so.
TRIOLI: Let's move to climate change. Greens Leader, Adam Bandt, we're told now, is set to negotiate with your Party, with the Government, over emissions reduction targets. It struck me as interesting that was made public that the word being used there was negotiate. Does that seem to indicate to you that the Greens are moving away from their much more hard-line stance of, 'My way or the highway'? Are you getting that impression?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I hope that that's the case. Largely, the Greens have been really talking publicly rather than what they've been saying to us.
TRIOLI: There haven't been any direct discussions so far?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, there have been discussions. And we made available the draft legislation, for example, to the Greens and the crossbenchers. And after we did that, they went out there and said, they're not negotiating, it's my way or the highway. Hang on. We gave you the legislation so you could look at it. Look, we're happy to consider any sensible amendments that can improve legislation. But what we're not happy to do, to be very clear, is to change the issue that we have a mandate for, which is 43 per cent reduction by 2030 and net zero by 2050.
TRIOLI: That's where I was going to clarify. If that sort of came down to if you could get the Greens support, if you just lifted that emissions reduction target by a touch, are you open to that at all?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
TRIOLI: So, it is your way or the highway on this one?
PRIME MINISTER: No, it's the Australian public's way. The Australian public elected 77 members of a majority Labor Government. That's what we have a mandate for.
TRIOLI: They also wanted to a lot of independents who have a much stronger vision.
PRIME MINISTER: And a lot of people have a lot weaker vision of emissions reduction as well. A lot of people who don't even believe that climate change is real and question the science. The position that we have supported has been supported as well, by the Business Council of Australia, Australian Industry Group, National Farmers' Federation, Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry. But importantly, as well, the Australian Conservation Foundation, Greenpeace, the Clean Energy Council. People want an end to the climate wars. And we didn't come up with a figure and then work out how to get there. What we came up with was a series of serious policies that will make a difference that happened to add up to 43 per cent by 2030. We announced it at the beginning of December, more than five months before the election. And that is what the Australian public expect us to support. And I've seen the movie whereby you have a Government that says one thing before an election and something different afterwards. And I know how it ends. I know how it ends. It ends badly. It ends with a decade of inaction, which is what happened during the last decade.
TRIOLI: Anthony Albanese, I know I have to let you go, and if I don't do that, you'll never come back again because your team will be furious at me. But I did want to ask you, when you heard Scott Morrison give that speech at a church over in Western Australia saying that we don't believe in government, we don't believe in the UN, we put our trust in God instead, what did you think?
PRIME MINISTER: I just thought, 'Wow. This guy was the Prime Minister of Australia and had that great honour of leading the Government. And I found it quite astonishing. And it provides some explanation perhaps of why, in my view, clearly he didn't lead a Government that was worthy of the Australian people. I find it astonishing that in what must have been, I guess, a moment of frankness, he has said he doesn't believe in government. I believe that government does play a role in people's lives and our living standards. I say to young people all the time, get involved, because government will impact on the quality of your life, whether you get healthcare when you need it, what sort of education opportunities you have access to, what your standard of living looks like. And the idea that he's out there and pressing the United Nations button again, I've spent the first two months since our election today, and I've spent two months trying to repair our international relations. And that sort of nonsense throwaway conspiracy line about the United Nations, I think isn't worthy of someone who led Australia.
TRIOLI: This is our first interview as Prime Minister. I hope it won't be the last. I hope it'll be the first of many.
PRIME MINISTER: Certainly won't be. Thanks, Virginia.
TRIOLI: Nice to spend time with you, Prime Minister. Thank you.
PRIME MINISTER: Thank you.