RAFAEL EPSTEIN, HOST: Anthony Albanese is the Prime Minister of Australia. Good morning, thanks for joining us.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good morning, Raf. Good to be with you.
EPSTEIN: The ABC reported on Tuesday about a male child care worker in Melbourne, as we heard in the headlines, accused of grooming, banned from working in childcare. Reported on Tuesday, the system we've got on Friday, he still has a working with children check. Like, can you believe that?
PRIME MINISTER: The reports that we've seen recently have shocked parents and they are every parent's worst nightmare. That is why we are taking action at the national level. It's one of the first pieces of legislation that we passed in Parliament to lift the safety of kids in childcare. That will enable us to cut off funding to childcare centres that aren't up to scratch. And today the Attorney General's convening a meeting with her state and territory counterparts and that's pushing for a national Working with Children's Check regime to strengthen the risk screening requirements and remove barriers to sharing information, you know, across state boundaries which are there in terms of safety risks. And next week the Education Minister is convening a meeting of his counterparts, Jason Clare, and that will include speeding up the development of a national register which clearly we need. Mandatory child safety training for early education and care workers and also looking at the role of CCTV in centres.
EPSTEIN: So, they're all hopefully steps forward, PM. But despite everything that everyone is concerned about, it's got reported on Tuesday that the system we have right now, his working with children check cannot be revoked, no criminal charges. But still, I just, doesn't that shock you?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course. It's hopeless. And we need to do better, quite clearly. And these revelations are a wakeup call for state and territory governments in terms of the regulations, but also the Commonwealth. We're doing what we can at the Commonwealth level to make sure that we improve safety.
EPSTEIN: Can I just ask you a specific question on the Commonwealth level. You mentioned some of those things that your Ministers are doing now. In 2017, the Royal Commission was talking about a national centralised database for the Working with Children Check, improving it so you don't need a criminal charge to, you know, have a red flag. So that would have been, I mean, I realise there would have been a lot of stuff on your desk when you were first elected more than three years ago, but that would have been on the desk three years ago. Have you dropped the ball on that?
PRIME MINISTER: It should have been, government should have done better. The Minister has very clearly said that, Jason Clare, and there's no question that that's the case. Governments haven't done well enough at either the Commonwealth or state level.
EPSTEIN: PM, last night on 7:30, America's Ambassador to Israel is not happy with your decision. Mike Huckabee said he was disgusted that Palestine would be recognised as a state by Australia. If we can just have a listen to that.
MICHAEL HUCKABEE, UNITED STATES AMBASSADOR TO ISRAEL: Hamas, this is a gift to them. There's an enormous level of disappointment and some disgust.
EPSTEIN: Some disgust, PM?
PRIME MINISTER: He is an ambassador of a country, not Australia, to another country, not Australia - Israel. My job is to represent Australia's interest, and Australians have been disgusted by what they see on their TV every night. They were disgusted by the terrorist actions of Hamas on October 7. The slaughter of innocent Israelis, the taking of hostages and the ongoing holding of those hostages have outraged Australians. But Australians have also seen the death of tens of thousands of people. When you have children starving, when you have children losing their lives with families queuing for food and water, then that provokes, not surprisingly, a human reaction. Now, this has gone on for 77 years, the conflict in the Middle East. Everyone has known for a long period of time it has been a bipartisan position of two states. One of those states, Israel, a majority Jewish state, so the Jewish people have a homeland and a state side by side of Palestine. That was the vision in 1947 when the United Nations adopted the position. The whole world - Australia, along with like-minded countries - is combining to say we need to advance that. It can’t continue to just keep going.
EPSTEIN: Does it feel like the whole world to you? Is it that many countries? Does it feel like the whole world?
PRIME MINISTER: Absolutely. It is a huge momentum towards saying enough is enough. How do we break the cycle of violence? And you break the cycle of violence by isolating Hamas. By not continuing to just do what has been happening over the last, since October 7th. Israel, of course, had a right to defend itself, we said that. But how it defends itself also matters, we said that at the time. And clearly what we have seen is more and more conflict, more and more innocent lives lost, and you need to have a break of the cycle. Now that is –
EPSTEIN: Can I just return to my question, though, PM. You've got Trump's guy in the Middle East disgusted with what you've done. Is that, are you concerned about that or not?
PRIME MINISTER: I'm concerned about Australia's position and that is what my role is. We're a sovereign nation and he's entitled to put his views, but we're also entitled to put our views and we didn't do it shyly. I noticed, I saw the interview last night, he suggested that this came as a surprise. I spoke with Prime Minister Netanyahu last Thursday night. I asked him what's the end point here? And the end point is the same as the end point that he had put to me more than a year ago, which was we're going to get rid of Hamas militarily. There was no political solution there. And the idea that you just continue to do more of the same, that you occupy Gaza City, that you foreshadowed the conflict, which has been opposed by the Israeli Defence Force themselves. One of the things that is important to recognise is that in Israel itself there have been tens of thousands of people suggesting this is not the way forward. You just can't continue with the same pattern without an end point. The end point has to be to isolate Hamas. There have been significant breakthroughs, including most importantly, the decision by the Arab League –
EPSTEIN: PM, can I just take you back?
PRIME MINISTER: – to condemn October 7 and to say that Hamas must be disarmed and have no role in a future Palestinian state is a major breakthrough.
EPSTEIN: Can I just take you back to the end game or where this goes next. Israel's presented some flimsy evidence against one journalist this week and then killed him and four of his colleagues. Are you okay with that?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course not. And there's been too many loss of innocent lives –
EPSTEIN: There's loss of innocent life, then there's targeting journalists. Do you think journalists are being targeted?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the Israeli Government themselves say in this case, there's one person they say there are allegations against. I'm not in a position, obviously, to ascertain the veracity of those allegations. But the camera crew killed, people with that journalist and there's been too much loss of innocent lives. Across the board we are seeing that, and that's why Australia has come to the position that we have. But taking a step back as well, if you argue, as Australia has for a long period of time, that there needs to be a two-state solution, been a bipartisan position, obviously one of those states is Palestine, one of those states is Israel. And in order to secure a better position, the advancing of human rights and the realisation of the legitimate aspiration of Palestinians for their own state, you need to ensure that that Israel can exist in security as well. And that is why the decision of the Arab League is so important going forward. We need to see a recognition by all the states around it of Israel's right to exist in peace and security and that is a precondition, clearly, for the advancing of justice for Palestinians. I want to see Palestinians and Israelis live in peace and security and I want to see an end to the killing of innocent lives, whether they be Israelis or Palestinians. That means that Hamas can have no role in a future Palestinian state.
EPSTEIN: PM, just a final, really important issue. Your government yesterday approved a massive housing development at the Victoria Market here in Melbourne. People were consulted, they feel they were not listened to. Is that just what happens when you want to build a lot of homes?
PRIME MINISTER: I'll tell you what, we need more homes, that's what I know. I'm not the decision maker about a specific development -
EPSTEIN: Does it mean the end of consultation though?
PRIME MINISTER: No, of course not. Of course not, but we need to have more homes, it's as simple as that. In my local community, something I do know specifically about, I’m not an expert on the area that you speak to. I know that a development right on Marrickville railway station was opposed. People came to see me, local constituents and said, you know, this is an outrage, it’s an overdevelopment. I tell you what, they are units near public transport, near facilities and amenities. I supported that development. I supported a range of developments in my community. I want to see Parramatta Road in my electorate –
EPSTEIN: Now you're losing us with the geography. Do you –
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we can't just say –
EPSTEIN: I understand –
PRIME MINISTER: We can't just say, no. We can't just say there is a housing crisis. Young people need to have the opportunity for access to, be it, home ownership or rentals, and then oppose every development. I have yet to see, I'd be surprised if inner Melbourne's different from inner Sydney that represent, and every single proposal has someone out there opposing it.
EPSTEIN: PM, before I let you go I'm going to ask you something you really might not know about, but something that's close to your heart. If I can just, sort of, change the tone. There is a concern in Victoria, it is illegal to be buried with your pet. It's clearly happening that once people's pets dies, they are then buried with them. I hope it's okay to ask you this. Would you ever want, you know, in the distant future, would you want Toto to be buried with you?
PRIME MINISTER: I do love my dog, I’ve got to say. And we speak about dogs being man's, or people's, best friends and that is certainly - if people feel close to their pets and they want to be buried with them, why would you stop it? Who’s being hurt?
EPSTEIN: It’s against the law, apparently.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it shouldn't be. A bit of common sense should apply, and I'm not surprised that it is happening. You know, the thing about our pets is they give us unconditional love and no matter how difficult my day is, when I come in there is, you know, a little furry friend who is absolutely ecstatic and excited to see me and it takes about ten minutes to settle down and that just lifts you up.
EPSTEIN: It does.
PRIME MINISTER: And so I think that's part of the human condition. So for goodness sake, whatever that law is, should be a bit of common sense should apply, surely.
EPSTEIN: Okay, we'll see if we can throw that into the mix. Thank you for your time.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks very much, Raf.