TOM MCILROY, HOST: This is the Australian Politics Podcast. Well, Anthony Albanese, welcome to the podcast.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Thanks for having me on.
TOM MCILROY: Great to have you with us in Melbourne. Thank you very much for taking the time. We're speaking on Friday morning. It's about 12 hours since news of the arrest of Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor broke. Could I ask you for your response? And of course, the former prince denies the allegations against him. What's your reaction to the news?
PRIME MINISTER: These are very serious allegations, and because they will be no doubt the subject of court action, I'm limited in what I can say, but people will be following the detail here. This appears to be about documents and whether they were inappropriately forwarded onto someone who wasn't eligible, classified documents. But of course there's the bigger issue as well when it comes to Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor, and no doubt we will wait and see where this all goes. But it's quite an extraordinary fall from grace, I must say, from someone who had such an esteemed position and was in a position really of absolute privilege, and to see this decline and fall is extraordinary.
TOM MCILROY: His brother, of course, is the King of Australia. These events can feel quite remote, but of course they do have a link to our system of government and our democracy here. Is it time for a reassessment of those ties?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I'm a Republican, but we had a referendum during the last term. Referendums are hard to pass in Australia. I have respect for King Charles, I must say, and for Queen Camilla. I have had a good relationship with him. He very much loves Australia and his visit here, I must say, was a very positive one. But that doesn't change the fact that I think there should be an Australian head of state.
TOM MCILROY: Are you aware of any ongoing inquiries or investigations linked to the Epstein files in Australia? Have there been approaches from authorities overseas?
PRIME MINISTER: No, none that I know of.
TOM MCILROY: Okay, okay. Alright, well, let me ask you about some of the other big issues in the news this week. You've been emphatic that the government won't assist the Australian citizens, women, and children who are stuck in this camp in Syria to return to Australia. The obligations under international law seem a little bit more complex. Is it possible that we are taking a hardline approach that will be problematic for Australia in the future, leaving children who could be radicalised in a difficult part of the world?
PRIME MINISTER: No, I don't think so. Look, these people made a decision to travel overseas, to fight in what was essentially a war or to provide sustenance to people who were fighters. And that is quite contrary to Australian law and quite contrary to any sense of decency here. I mean, the Islamic State sought a Caliphate, which is an attack on our way of life, so I'm not sympathetic with them. I'm sympathetic with the children and it's a very difficult situation that they face, but it's one in which those responsible for them being in that position are those who put them in harm's way. And that wasn't the Australian Government, quite contrary to it.
TOM MCILROY: What about if they are able to make it home to Australia? They were stopped by authorities on the ground there, but potentially they could be able to return relatively soon. Of course, they have the required legal documents. How will the government respond if they do make it to Australia?
PRIME MINISTER: By subjecting to them to the full force of the law, so if there are any breaches of the law, then they'll be charged and face appropriate action. Legally, we regard that as being absolutely critical. Already, there is one person who's been subject to a temporary exclusion order that is as a result of the threshold being reached by the National Security Agencies to make that recommendation.
TOM MCILROY: Do you think further temporary exclusion orders are possible or perhaps necessary for this group?
PRIME MINISTER: We have to follow the law as it is and the advice of the national security agencies, so I'm not going to preempt that or to talk about individual cases. Suffice to say that we will apply the law in as a direct way as possible.
TOM MCILROY: It has fed into a debate that's going on here in Australia about racism. Obviously, the One Nation leader, Pauline Hanson, made comments this week. Are you at all disappointed about the state of the debate this week? Her comments, I think were quite racist.
PRIME MINISTER: Of course I am, but Pauline Hanson has made a whole career of dividing Australians, whether it be Asian Australians, Muslim Australians, Indigenous Australians. This is someone who doesn't ever look for unity. She looks for people to blame who she regards as not being like her, and she seeks to amplify grievances rather than look for solutions. And it's no way forward for our country, but that is who Pauline Hanson is. That is what she has made a career out of since her arrival in the House of Representatives way back in 1996.
TOM MCILROY: We're speaking at the start of Ramadan and I think the Lakemba mosque is feeling the real life force of this. They've received some threats. Yesterday in an interview you said that you saw a link between political rhetoric and these kinds of threats. How do we make sure that people at the mosque and the Islamic community around the country feel safe and aren't negatively affected by a political debate?
PRIME MINISTER: By engaging directly with people. Overwhelmingly Australians, regardless of their faith, their background, love this country. That's why they're here, and last night I was at Dandenong at the night markets to celebrate Iftar, the breaking of the fast for Ramadan, and there were people there from different countries who've come to Australia from Albania, Bosnia, the Middle East, who were all celebrating and there was such a wonderful feel there. I was very welcomed there. We had a couple of our local MPs from those eastern suburbs of Melbourne, Cassandra Fernando and Julian Hill. There were mayors and state members, but importantly just members of the community celebrating. There was a really positive feel there, just as at Lakemba when the night markets happen. It's a really positive thing and I'd encourage people to go and have a look and to enjoy what is a celebration in this country.
It is a good thing that last night I was there with members of the Islamic community. Earlier on in the day, I was celebrating Lunar New Year with members of the Chinese Australian community with Gabriel Ng and members of the community. We had dancing and singing and importantly food and a celebration of culture. I won't say I was a terrific maker of dumplings, but I did my best, and there was a demonstration of calligraphy, an extraordinary art form as well. We have a great privilege in this country of people being loyal to Australia but also not forgetting where they're from and celebrating that. For Christians, we come up to the period before Easter, Lent. There'll be a range of celebrations there and all of the different communities welcome other people participating in their celebrations. That's my experience. On Saturday here in Melbourne in Box Hill, there'll be about a hundred thousand people at the Lunar New Year events. I'll be doing a Lunar New Year event in Sydney on Sunday. These are all positive things for Australia. And Pauline Hanson appeals to our darkest forces. I want to appeal to light and to optimism and to unity because that's the way our country will go forward.
TOM MCILROY: Do you see it as your job as the leader of the country, but also the Labor leader, to push back on political rhetoric that goes into these dark places? I think Keir Starmer, your UK counterpart, has been quite forward leaning in saying he's going to fight back against Reform, the fringe party in the UK. Do you see yourself doing a similar thing?
PRIME MINISTER: I do. That's part of what I've always done, is stand up against racism in all of its forms, whether it be antisemitism, whether it be Islamophobia, whether it be the attacks that we saw and comments about Indian Australians, whether it be the attacks on Indigenous Australians. We know where some of this rhetoric can lead and division has no place in this great country of ours. We are so privileged to share this continent with the oldest continuous culture on earth, but also privileged that people have come here to Australia in order to make a better life for themselves, but also for their families, for their children and generations to come.
TOM MCILROY: I'm interested to ask you about the social media ban. The international response grows and grows by the week. I see the United States suggestion that Donald Trump might himself look at a similar set of rules, France, other countries across Europe. That must be satisfying for you. How do you think the ban is going here?
PRIME MINISTER: It's going extraordinarily well. It's exceeded expectations. 4.7 million accounts either paused or shut down very quickly within weeks of the ban coming in on 10 December last year. But since then as well, the world was watching. This was a courageous decision that came from the grassroots up. This wasn't something that government came up with. It was parents who'd lost their young sons or daughters channelling that trauma into not wanting other parents to go through what they had gone through, and so it has been really positive. I was going into schools at the end of last year and have been talking with parents this year as well, and everywhere the feedback is positive. And the feedback from young people as well. I was talking to someone just last night who was saying that their son, who was 14, was saying to them just in the last week, oh, it's good that they don't have to deal with these devices and that form of communication, they're communicating with each other.
Who knew that we could actually talk with each other as we are here now - is much more direct and much more effective I think, in communicating than through something that you don't even know whether the communication is real on the other end, of course. We know that artificial intelligence and is playing a role. I don't look at comments on social media, but I did this week just to check in part because of the social media ban, some of the comments and now the use of AI - graphics that aren't really me, in response is just extraordinary that people would go to that effort to spread hatred effectively, and so the social media ban has now been taken up or in the process of being taken up throughout Europe, Spain, Denmark, France, the UK, New Zealand, our neighbours, Malaysia, Indonesia. And I welcome the reports that the United States is considering action as well. A number of states in the US have already taken action. And we should be really proud, just like we're proud of Medicare and we're proud of compulsory superannuation and we're proud of women getting the vote here before other parts of the world, we should be really proud that we have led the world on something that a whole lot of people, including, even the Opposition's communications spokesperson was trying to undermine it at the end of last year just before it came in. The truth is it's being replicated and that's a great thing. Social media has a social responsibility and it's been called out.
TOM MCILROY: Would support from Donald Trump or increasing support from the US represent a tipping point? I mean, you can't get bigger than that, especially in tech.
PRIME MINISTER: It would be huge, and the fact is that a range of people said to us before we put the ban in place that this would endanger our relationship with other countries. The truth is that we did it because it was the right thing to do and I think Michelle Rowland as the former communications minister and then Anika Wells deserve a great deal of credit, as does the eSafety Commissioner, who has done a fantastic job. Julie Inman Grant has been subject to a whole lot of attacks as well, and she's done a great job putting this in place.
TOM MCILROY: Let me ask you about the Budget. We're coming up towards a federal budget that you forecast will be a reforming budget. Is it possible that changes to capital gains tax will be one of those measures? Where are you up to on your thinking, noting that we're still a couple of months away.
PRIME MINISTER: We're a while away. It's the second Tuesday in May, so we'll go through our budget processes, but our tax policy is to have tax cuts on 1 July and another tax cut the year after. Our housing policy is about more supply and that's not going to change. That's the focus that we have, but of course in the lead up to budget, you'll always get speculation. We'll see what happens on Budget Night, but we've made no decisions beyond the policies that we put forward at the election.
TOM MCILROY: There was a strong hint from Katy Gallagher, the Finance Minister, in Estimates, that it's possible that a change might be targeted. It might be just about housing, maybe just about new supply. I'm interested in your thoughts on that.
PRIME MINISTER: Oh, look, we've made no decisions. And Katy Gallagher will play a critical role. She has played a great role as Finance Minister. We've found $114 billion of savings since we came to government. We produced two budget surpluses and we've lowered the deficits that were forecast in the last Morrison-Frydenberg budget of 2022.
TOM MCILROY: There's been a speculation about cuts in the federal bureaucracy, potentially trimming budgets in government departments and agencies. Is that something we should expect in this budget, as the economy becomes a more complex picture?
PRIME MINISTER: You'll have to wait and see what's in the budget. We haven't finalised the Budget yet. Obviously, we had to deal as well post-14 December with national security issues, and that was the focus. The National Security Committee was meeting every day, rather than the ERC, over that Christmas period. But we'll get on with ERC meetings. We meet regularly of course, and we did in the lead up to my MYEFO. That found some good savings. We'll put together the Budget, but it will be a Labor budget. It will be a budget that deals with immediate challenges, but we'll also look for how we build the future, including on productivity and how we continue to grow the economy is very important.
TOM MCILROY: You've talked about child care as one of the potential changes that you'd like to see under your prime ministership. Give our listeners an update of where we're up to in that consideration. It would be a big shift and an expensive one, I think
PRIME MINISTER: We have already implemented - on 6 January, the three-day guarantee for childcare began. That was really important because there was actually a barrier in the way that the childcare system interacted with employment issues, so that people were stuck, if you like, in not being able to gain work, but not being able to get support for the childcare subsidies. So, the three-day guarantee was very important going forward. In addition to that, we've got our billion-dollar fund for infrastructure so that in communities where there isn't access to childcare in some of our outer suburbs, our regional communities, that will happen as well. On just Wednesday this week, I was in Latrobe in Tasmania, in the northwest, at a child care centre that had been established there thanks to the wonderful Anne Urquhart campaign to make sure that that community that was losing its only child care centre was able to get a temporary one established while the new one is being built.
And what that does is make sure that you can have full participation in the workforce for women. And part of our gender equity policy that I think when people look back at this government, already in our first, not yet four years, we have record workforce participation. We have reduced the gender pay gap to a record low. We've provided pay increases in feminised industries such as early learning and aged care that have made a real difference. We have the biggest women's health programme that has ever been implemented by the government, including a range of measures in reproductive health that is so important. We've got our endo and pelvic pain clinics as well providing support around the country, and of course, we've expanded paid parental leave and put superannuation onto paid parental leave as well. And appointed women into senior roles as firsts. In the Governor-General's case, Her Excellency, Sam Mostyn, she was the second, but in a range of other areas, the first Secretary of Treasury, head of the Reserve Bank, head of ASIC, head of the Productivity Commission. To have women in those senior roles is very important, and it's no accident that my Government has a majority of women both in our caucus but also around the cabinet table.
TOM MCILROY: I think this week you've surpassed both John Curtin and Scott Morrison for time in office. I think that makes you the longest serving Prime Minister since John Howard. Does your mind start to think about the future? Do you think a little bit about legacy, some of those things that you've described in the way that the Labor Government is changing the country?
PRIME MINISTER: I want Labor to be the natural party of government, because I think that is -- only the Labor Party represents or tries to represent the majority of Australia's interests, both directly in terms of making sure that people aren't left behind, but also in setting Australia up. The big challenges that we have, how do we deal with the challenge of climate change, but also seize the opportunity that is there from that action? How do we make sure that all Australians can fully participate and have opportunity open those doors of opportunity? So, the gender issues I've just spoken about, free TAFE, the cuts to student debt, the housing measures that we're putting in place, that's all about opportunity as well for Australia.
And also, how we engage with the world is really important. We live in turbulent times and some of the norms that were taken for granted. The move towards free trade has been reversed in some cases. The conflict in the world, a land war in Europe that is ongoing. We can't regard anything as being just certain anymore, but we need to make sure that Australia is well positioned to take advantage of the fact we're in the fastest growing region of the world in human history, that the way that we've engaged, not just with our traditional allies, the United States and the UK, but we've repaired the relationship with China. We've got the treaty with Indonesia I signed just a couple of weeks ago with President Prabowo. We have our first alliance since 1951 with Papua New Guinea, and our relationship with Pacific Island Forum as well as with ASEAN countries has never ever been stronger. So that is all important as well. We are not isolated from the world, as much as there is different responses. We still live in an ever globalising world. New technology is ubiquitous. How do we deal with challenges and opportunities that come from robotics, artificial intelligence from some of these changes, which are there?
TOM MCILROY: Okay, PM, we're nearly out of time. Our traditional last question in the Australian Politics interview is about the private life, the free time that you might have as an MP, as the PM, with a very busy job. How do you wind down, if you've got a free afternoon, a bit of time at the Lodge with Jodie, how do you relax? What are your private passions?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I like music, as I think you know. So, listening to albums and new music and trying to get some pleasure from that. The occasional show on TV, I quite like shows because I don't have much spare time. I like shows that have like six to eight episodes. Something like that can be good, Jodie and I make sure that we have a show going at any one time. It might take us a long while to get through it. But I enjoy walking the dog, Toto, and I enjoy playing tennis. I find nothing's quite as good for mental health as tennis. It's a simple game. You hit the ball over the net, between the lines, and you can't think of anything else while you're playing tennis. You can't be on your mobile phone and it requires constant attention. Unlike a lot of sports, cricket or a range of other sports, there's a lot of downtime in between the action.
There's no downtime in tennis, so I still play in the Sydney badge tennis comp for Marrickville on a Saturday afternoon. There's 14 rounds in the comp. I made, I think six or seven of them last year. And that's three hours in which, you know, not taking it too seriously, it's a relatively low grade I play in, but played in good spirit as well, and I find that a really good break. And I've been a member of Marrickville tennis playing since I was a kid. Hard court, and then going across to the lawn. And there I'm just Albo. So yeah, everyone has a beer afterwards and relaxes. That, or of course I like going to the footy. I like rugby league, but also AFL is a great passion, whether it's watching Souths or watching the Hawks. It's a good thing too, to turn off and to concentrate on something else for a little while. You've got to find space to have those breaks in order to have, that thinking time then becomes clearer, I find as well.
TOM MCILROY: Well, PM, it's been great having a chat on so many different issues. Thanks for taking the time and we'll catch up with you again soon.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks so much. Good to catch up in Melbourne. Maybe we'll catch up in Canberra next time.