DAVID SPEERS, HOST: Prime Minister, welcome to the program.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good morning, David.
SPEERS: Six days to go until referendum day. What's your level of confidence? Will Australia vote Yes?
PRIME MINISTER: I'm certainly very hopeful that when Australians focus on what the question is before them, just two things at stake here. One, recognising the fact of our history, it didn't begin in 1788, it goes back 65,000 years. We share this continent with the oldest continuous culture on earth. That must be a source of great pride. And secondly, a non-binding advisory committee to give advice, to make representations to the Government and to the Parliament on matters affecting Indigenous people. And we know that that will produce better outcomes. Because if you look at the programs that have been most effective, in community health, justice reinvestment, Indigenous Rangers programs - they all have that sense of ownership. And with that as well, importantly, will come responsibility for the outcomes so you'll get better efficiency. This is a very fiscally conservative position here, David, which is why a range of people like Chris Kenny have been pointing that out for a long period of time.
SPEERS: So, you said your hopeful, though. Will you honestly be surprised if Australia votes No?
PRIME MINISTER: No, I'm optimistic. What I see on the ground, whether it's in Wangaratta or whether it be Shepperton or Sydney or Brisbane, Melbourne the places I've been, Hobart, Adelaide in the last week, have been extremely positive. The feedback is that when people have those conversations, they are willing to vote Yes. I think most Australians are generous people. They know that there's a gap, an eight-year life expectancy gap, a greater chance of an Indigenous young male going to jail than to university. We can't keep doing things the same way, we need to do things better and that starts with listening.
SPEERS: Why do you think so many are saying No?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the history of referendums in this country is eight out of forty-four have been successful. It's really easy to go out there and talk about No. We just heard the Indigenous Affairs spokesperson for the Coalition. One wonders why there's an Indigenous Affairs spokesperson if we don't want to listen and have some special programs focused on Indigenous people. So, we know that the confusion, which has been a deliberate strategy of the No campaign, we've had some quite frankly, some absurd debates about whether the Indigenous Voice will be advising the Reserve Bank about interest rates. We've had a debate over how long the Uluru Statement from the Heart is. That is all a conscious decision to wreck and to confuse –
SPEERS: But you think No voters are just confused or being misled?
PRIME MINISTER: I think that the leadership of Peter Dutton or the failure to really show leadership when he made the decision after the Aston by-election to say No. He is arguing, of course, to have a second referendum if he's elected but he's also arguing to legislate the Voice. So, the difference here is whether the Voice can be abolished or not - that's the only difference here.
SPEERS: And we'll come to that, but I'm just trying to get to why you think people are saying No to this. You mentioned the Shadow Minister, how influential do you think Jacinta Nampijinpa Price has been?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I think the whole No campaign are backed up by the media. We have a front page story today David, about a so called survey. And I looked for some facts, a company, some figures, and there's nothing there. There has been no survey, but it makes the front page of the paper. So, people are getting all of this information to them, they're being told that it's complex. What I would say to people, to your listeners who haven't made up their mind, and what I'll continue to say over the next six days is to have a look at what the question is, because it's very clear. It simply asks, in recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples as the first peoples of Australia. And then three points. There shall be a body, the Voice, it may give, make representations on matters affecting Indigenous people and the primacy of the Parliament. This doesn't change any of the ways in which we are governed.
SPEERS: But my question was really about Jacinta Price and how influential she's been as an Indigenous woman from Alice Spring saying, vote No because this is going to divide us.
PRIME MINISTER: Well of course, that has been a factor, the fact that there is not a homogeneous view amongst Indigenous Australians. But what we know is that, as we speak here, the Central Land Council, made up of ninety elected delegates from all throughout those communities, covering tens of thousands of kilometres in central Australia, are all absolutely united in supporting a Yes vote. As is every Land Council in the Northern Territory. As are the fifty-six separate Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander groups who are a part of the Coalition of Peaks. As are more than a thousand doctors. As are representative groups of Indigenous communities right around the country.
SPEERS: The argument that, we were talking about this earlier, does seem to be potent is this one of division. Jacinta Price is saying divides us on race. Now, you've previously called such an argument the great lie.
PRIME MINISTER: Because there is race powers now in our constitution. And what this is about is Indigenous issues, not race. So, that is what this is about. Every other former colony in the world, which was a former colony, the British or someone else, has recognised its first peoples in its founding document. New Zealand did it in the nineteenth century, Canada did it in the twentieth.
SPEERS: But if this change gives only Indigenous Australians a special body in the constitution that others don't have, does that add to division?
PRIME MINISTER: No, what it does is allow them to be listened to. Recognise the special relationship with 65,000 years of connection to land and waters gives to Indigenous Australians. It recognises, just as the Mabo decision did their prior ownership of the land here –
SPEERS: So, is Jacinta Price lying to Australians?
PRIME MINISTER: Look, Jacinta Price has put her views and it's up to her to do that. But what has occurred here –
SPEERS: You've called it the great lie.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, because it is not true. It is not true to say this is divisive. This is an opportunity to bring the country together. And when I was, on Thursday morning with all of the faith leaders, Catholics, Maronites, Anglicans, Baptists, Muslims, Sikhs, Hindus, all of this broad group all coming together, the Jewish community, all coming together, it was a moment of unity. It showed to me what the country can be. Our great multicultural success story here. And that's been the latest chapter in the Australian story.
SPEERS: Given that, I mean, you've talked about how the world will be watching this vote. How it will be, Australia will be seen as a mature country, able to be honest about its history if we vote Yes. What's at stake here? How will Australia be viewed if we vote No?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, a vote for Yes is a vote to show respect to Indigenous Australians. But it's also an opportunity for non-Indigenous Australians to lift that burden up, to acknowledge the fullness of our history. But it also, of course, will be seen by the world. It was something that the G20 were very conscious, international leaders, of the fact that we are having this referendum because other countries have gone through it much earlier.
SPEERS: Are you saying they were keen to see Australia vote Yes.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, Australia is last in the queue when it comes to acknowledging the fullness and richness of our history.
SPEERS: So, if we vote No, how are we viewed internationally?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I think that we will go out there and explain the position, but –
SPEERS: It'll hurt us, is that your view?
PRIME MINISTER: My main focus, well, I think that quite clearly, Australia is being watched at this time in terms of the referendum for how we're perceived, and it will be seen as an uplifting moment. It will be seen that Australia has come to terms with our history, that we're a mature nation, that we can recognise -
SPEERS: Will we be diminished if we vote no?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I'm hoping we vote yes.
SPEERS: But I'm asking –
PRIME MINISTER: I'm hoping we vote yes because the debate here is whether Australia will enlarge ourselves. Whether we're a country that looks for hope and optimism and for the future, or whether we shrink in on ourselves.
SPEERS: I want to ask you what happens after Saturday if there is, as all the polls indicate, a No vote. What will you do about tackling Indigenous disadvantage?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we're already undertaking measures, but in my view, it won't be as effective as having a body, a Voice to be listened to. But we'll continue to do things like, we're replacing the remote jobs program with a program for employment that actually creates real jobs with real wages. We'll continue to invest in justice reinvestment, looking at programs like Bourke that work effectively. We'll continue to invest in community health. But what a Voice will do is provide for an opportunity for us to replicate the success stories. There are success stories out there. Success stories where Indigenous kids are going to school, where health programs are being improved. And we saw during the pandemic David, at its peak, I was briefed about the potential catastrophic consequences for Indigenous communities that were occurring at the early stages there with low vaccination rates, with low knowledge. It was only when the bureaucrats went out to the community and listened to the community that that was turned around and much more effective programs being implemented.
SPEERS: So, if Australians say they don't want it in the constitution, surely then you would still legislate the Voice, set it up in law?
PRIME MINISTER: No. What we've done here, David, is respect the request for Indigenous Australians for recognition in the form that they have asked for it through the Uluru Statement, all of which occurred under the former Coalition government. But we will also respect the response of Australians next Saturday.
SPEERS: What does that mean?
PRIME MINISTER: It means that if Australians vote No, I don't believe that it would be appropriate to then go and say, oh, well, you've had your say, but we're going to legislate anyway. So, what we will do is respect the outcome of the referendum.
SPEERS: But I don't quite understand that, because if it's going to deliver all these benefits and in fact, let me play this. This is some of your colleagues, your ministers, arguing all the good things that a Voice can achieve. Have a look.
JIM CHALMERS, TREASURER: The Voice is about better outcomes. It's about better value for money, and that makes it good economic policy as well.
JASON CLARE, MINISTER FOR EDUCATION: If we listen and come to better decisions and get better results and have more young Indigenous men going to university than to jail, then it's going to be better for them, it'll be better for their community, and it'll be better for Australian taxpayers.
MARK BUTLER, MINISTER FOR HEALTH AND AGED CARE: It will shift the dial in suicide rates, which are twice as high for young Indigenous Australians as for non-Indigenous Australians.
SPEERS: So benefits for health and education and the economy. Surely you wouldn't just walk away from it, you'd set it up in law?
PRIME MINISTER: What you do when we're talking about the Voice is listening. And Indigenous Australians have said they want a Voice that's enshrined. What they don't want to do is what they've done time and time again, which is to be a part of establishing representative organisations only to see, for opportunistic reasons, a government to come in and just abolish it. All of that, all of that social capital, if you like, that investment of their heart and soul, which has been ripped away so many times. And that's what this referendum is about. It is about listening, and if a Voice is about listening to Indigenous Australians, we need to listen to the gracious request that they have made.
SPEERS: Okay, and if it's a No vote, you walk away from the Voice altogether?
PRIME MINISTER: Correct. We will continue to do what we can, to listen to Indigenous Australians, we try that now, but Indigenous Australians are saying that they want it to be enshrined.
SPEERS: And what do you do about reconciliation? Where does a No vote leave reconciliation in Australia? Are you worried about that?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course I'm concerned about that. And I think that the reconciliation journey, which the Uluru Statement so eloquently speaks. It speaks about walking together to a better future. And for 122 years, we have done things, often with the best of intentions, we've done things to or for Indigenous Australians. What we're saying and Indigenous Australians are doing is wanting things done with them. And this is –
SPEERS: This would be a setback for reconciliation, then, wouldn't it if Australians vote No. Do you have any sort of thoughts going on in the back of your head - how am I going to deal with this?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I'm focused on success next Saturday, because I believe this will be really important. And I think when Australians do focus in the next six days, and we know that more than one in four are yet to make up their mind, what this is a hand out of friendship. And when I came to the studio here in Canberra this morning, the first thing that we did was shake hands, that's what you do. This is a hand out from the first Australians asking non-Indigenous Australia just to join with them in something that is a very modest request. A non-binding advisory committee to give advice, make representations to government, and then it's up to Parliament and government to decide whether it accepts that advice or not. But after 122 years, that is not too much to ask. And as Paul Kelly is singing and as I said at Garma, if not now, when? When will we get around to constitutional recognition of the first Australians? Peter Dutton says he's going to have another referendum, but this is the guy who walked out on the apology because he found it so offensive, that it would have such dire consequences. Guess what? It didn't. He was wrong then, which is why he apologised and he's wrong now. And a Yes vote, a Yes vote will be an important step towards reconciliation in this country.
SPEERS: We'll see what happens on Saturday. Just quickly on a few other things, PM. What's happening in Israel, in the Middle East right now, Benjamin Netanyahu, the Prime Minister, says his country is at war after this major incursion from Hamas fighters. For Australia's part, what is your view of what we're witnessing happen there at the moment?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, this is an abhorrent attack on Israel. This is indiscriminate. Civilians being targeted, killed and murdered, and as well, many of them being taken as hostages. This is a dreadful circumstance that people didn't see coming, it wasn't foreshadowed, a shock attack. I spoke to the Israeli Ambassador to Australia, who's in Israel this morning and he, of course, was very shaken, as you would expect. And this action is ongoing, it must stop. Israel has a right to defend itself, which is what it is doing.
SPEERS: Are you worried about escalation here? Would you be urging any restraint?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, of course people are worried about escalation, but Israel has a right to defend itself and it will be doing so. This is an attack on Israel by Hamas that has no precedent for what is occurring here.
SPEERS: Are you aware of any Australians being caught up in the violence?
PRIME MINISTER: The advice that I have at this point in time is that all Australians are safe. There are, of course, ADF personnel as well, Australian Defence Force personnel in the region. And at this point in time, the advice as of this morning is that no Australians are caught up. But, of course, it's incomplete advice. This has been a very dark twenty-four hours.
SPEERS: I want to also ask you about Ukraine because we've seen in Washington over the last week or so, this growing number of Republicans who want to wind back support for Ukraine. The future now of US support appears to be somewhat in limbo after the ousting of the House Speaker, Kevin McCarthy. Is this concerning you?
PRIME MINISTER: Well support for Ukraine is support for democracy and support for the international rule of law. It's something that President Biden has been very strong on and the Australian government is strong on as well and has been a bipartisan position here. This is a struggle to defend the rights of a sovereign state to exist. To defend the rights of a democracy to exist. And the Russian illegal and immoral invasion of Ukraine has reminded us as well that this action has led to increased prices here in Australia and has had drastic human, environmental, social and economic consequences.
SPEERS: So your support is unwavering?
PRIME MINISTER: Our support is totally unwavering -
SPEERS: You’ve urged to send –
PRIME MINISTER: Of the people of Ukraine. And I know that President Biden and the United States will continue to stand strong.
SPEERS: And I've got to ask you about this apparent conversation between Donald Trump and Anthony Pratt about nuclear submarines. I'm not so much interested in your view of what they might have discussed, but we know Donald Trump is on trial for alleged mishandling of documents. Would you trust him with national security secrets?
PRIME MINISTER: I don't discuss security issues for the United States.
SPEERS: I’m asking whether you trust –
PRIME MINISTER: I tend not to discuss, I am not going to get into US security issues. Not only that, David, I'd be unlikely to discuss Australian security intelligence issues on Insiders as well. It's a good idea to not do so.
SPEERS: Would you trust him?
PRIME MINISTER: I work very closely with President Biden. Who the United States elects as President is a matter for the people of the United States and I will respect, as we do, democratic outcomes wherever they occur.
SPEERS: Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, thank you so much for joining us this morning.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks, David.