PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: The Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, joins me now. Prime Minister, welcome.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good to be with you, PK. Good to see you in Canberra.
KARVELAS: I love this place. You know that. People have accused you of being too careful, risk averse – is this the biggest gamble and risk you've taken as Prime Minister, this budget?
PRIME MINISTER: This is doing the right thing for the right reasons. We made a decision that we couldn't kick this can down the road. We know that increasingly more and more young people are saying to me, but also their parents and grandparents, that they're locked out of the housing market. Now when that problem is getting worse, in spite of everything we've thrown at housing through our $47 billion homes for Australia plan, we've got all that increased supply coming through in public housing, private rentals, shared equity scheme, the 5 per cent home deposits. But clearly we needed to do more. And this is a sensible reform. It will allow grandfathering for existing property investors, but it also – people can continue to invest in property, but it has to be new housing. And the difference that that makes is that people will still benefit from their investments, but the country will benefit as well by increasing supply.
KARVELAS: So, let me ask this. Would you have won 94 seats if you had taken this to the election?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, you're the commentator.
KARVELAS: No, no, no, I asked you. I don't know. Do you think you wouldn't? You make assessments all the time.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, people didn't think I'd get 94 seats before the election, Patricia.
KARVELAS: Lots of people didn't. But do you think you could have with something so contentious?
PRIME MINISTER: I was very confident. Look, we are putting this forward and arguing our case, and I believe that the Australian people will support this sensible reform because it is the right thing to do. And if you look at what's happening in society, what you can't have is people being defined as being those who are either homeowners or will inherit a home from their parents, and a whole lot of people who are just locked out, a generation. That will lead to social dislocation and a lack of coherence, which is there. I want a society that fulfils the Australian values, that everyone has a fair go, that people have a crack at home ownership, that rewards aspiration and working hard. And that's what these measures do, together with our further tax cuts and the free TAFE to give people those jobs and incentives going forward and other measures in this Budget.
KARVELAS: But what moment, personally, because it was only in the last few weeks, did you personally realise that you needed to do this? Was there a moment that crystallised it for you?
PRIME MINISTER: We examined – this happens over a period of time. But we did finalise the Budget quite late.
KARVELAS: Yeah, but were you walking, I don't know, with Toto and you thought, oh, no, people are really pissed off.
PRIME MINISTER: And we did that. Look, housing has been an issue I've been passionate about. I was the Parliament Shadow – Parliamentary Secretary for Housing, literally the end of the last century. It's something I've had a great interest in for a long period of time. I'm passionate about it because I know the difference that the security of a roof over your head has.
KARVELAS: Yeah, so what got you over the line?
PRIME MINISTER: I want Australians to have that. When we could look at the different models and work out something that one, made sure that existing investors weren't disadvantaged, two, made sure that people could continue who want to invest in housing could do so. And we do that through the new supply options. And three, when we worked out as well a package of reforms that will give back every single dollar of revenue that is raised in tax cuts.
KARVELAS: It doesn't in the future, though. So, does that mean in the forward – I'm talking the mid-term, over 10 years, does that mean you go to the next election, and you must offer a more substantial tax cut?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what it means, I mean, we've just had a budget last night.
KARVELAS: I like to move forward.
PRIME MINISTER: You know, we'll sell this package and try to get it through the Parliament as it is. We're focused on that. But what it will do, of course, is do that over the forward estimates. In reality, that's four years, so that goes beyond the next election.
KARVELAS: So, these tax measures, when do you want to legislate them by?
PRIME MINISTER: We will look at introducing them during this session and I'd like to see certainly the negative gearing and capital gains tax changes done as soon as possible.
KARVELAS: So, by July?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I would like to see it done as soon as possible, but we'll talk across the Parliament. We treat the Parliament with respect. I think I've got a pretty good –
KARVELAS: Let me nail you down on this. Come on, give me something. Would you like to see it done by July? That’s what some of your colleagues have told me.
PRIME MINISTER: I would always like for things to be done as soon as possible because that provides that certainty going forward and my government's one that ticks off legislation. That ticks off changes. We did that last year, at the end of last year with the environmental reforms. We did that with a range of other legislation. We brought the Parliament back in January, of course, to deal with the Bondi terrorist attack legislation. We will be introducing legislation during this Budget session that we hope to get through. Now, the consultation –
KARVELAS: You need the Greens to get it through. You need the Greens to get it through, because the Coalition says no [inaudible].
PRIME MINISTER: Well, they say no to everything, Patricia.
KARVELAS: You can try to get them over the line, but you’re quite clear about this.
PRIME MINISTER: That's their problem, is that they just instinctively have made themselves not relevant to public discourse because they just sit there and say no as they increasingly lose support and diminish and lose people in the Parliament.
KARVELAS: So, that means you'll need the Greens. Have you had discussions with Larissa Waters and the Greens to try and get them over the line?
PRIME MINISTER: I have discussions with people around the Parliament, with them, rather than through the ABC. Not even through Afternoon Briefing.
KARVELAS: It's outrageous. People are outraged. You should negotiate through this show. So, do you accept that many more young people are using shares now and that they get a capital gaining from those shares and they'll be taxed more highly? And does that worry?
PRIME MINISTER: You know, what they'll do is get taxed on the real gains that they made –
KARVELAS: But that will be taxed higher now.
PRIME MINISTER: The gains after – well, it depends how long they hold on to them and all of those issues as well. But it is absolutely a fair system to move to capital gains tax being on real gains, that is the gain after inflation is taken into account. Now that was the system between 1985, when capital gains was first introduced by Paul Keating in Bob Hawke's government, and 1999. In 1999, they changed the system. And what we've seen isn't an encouragement to invest in shares. What we've seen since 1999 because of the operation of the system is a distortion much towards the housing market rather than equities and rather than investment in –
KARVELAS: Did you consider them carving out this change from people, young people, who do use this kind of way of trying to save up for house deposits? Did you?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, no, we didn't consider a two-tier based upon your age and introduce your birth certificate when you buy a share? No, we didn't do that. What we did do was make sure that young people will get a fair crack at owning their own home as a direct result of these changes. Now I want to see that 75,000 young people get into home ownership on top of what we've done already. This will make a real difference to them. Which will support their aspiration to own their own home.
KARVELAS: I want to talk to you about net overseas migration because the forecasts are out again. Do you – are you confident in the forecast you're getting on these issues?
PRIME MINISTER: We are. The forecast, as it's shown, goes from 295,000 in the current year down to 225,000 –
KARVELAS: It overshoots what it was meant to, right?
PRIME MINISTER: It did this time because of people staying.
KARVELAS: Yeah. So, what do you do about that?
PRIME MINISTER: Not because of – well, there's a range of measures in the Budget about that as well, that you'll see come out over a period of time. We're already changing, for example, the way that we're dealing with students in this country.
KARVELAS: But do you need to be – say it's because people won't leave, okay. Do you need to be more active in trying to deal with that. Given clearly in the community there are concerns about the immigration rate.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we are dealing with that. But we also see a lot of misinformation that isn't true as well. As you know, I got asked a question earlier today about – which doubled the actual net overseas migration figure. Now we've got that figure down by 45 per cent. It was normal that what would occur after Covid, when people were locked out of this country, Australian citizens were locked out –
KARVELAS: Of course there was an uptick, but it would continue to be an issue
PRIME MINISTER: - that you'd see a spike. Now, that was something we inherited. What we've been working on is getting those numbers down. We've been doing that by 45 per cent. There's more work to do.
KARVELAS: But there is more work to do.
PRIME MINISTER: There is more work to do and we're doing it.
KARVELAS: And we're going to see a more aggressive push there because, well, we're seeing the rise of One Nation. They are campaigning on these issues, Prime Minister, and they're gaining traction.
PRIME MINISTER: Often with misinformation and –
KARVELAS: But if people believe it, you have to deal with that, right?
PRIME MINISTER: But we have had a 45 per cent reduction. What the Budget papers show is that that will be reduced further.
KARVELAS: But you're saying there'll be more work and more to come to try to deal with that migration issue, which has an impact on housing.
PRIME MINISTER: Oh, absolutely. And you're seeing that. And that's why the numbers in the Budget papers reflect that work.
KARVELAS: Rise in populism in the world, clearly, in the Farrer By-election, which of course hurt the Liberal National parties. But Chris Minns argued that he thought, you know, One Nation was a real threat to Labor as well. Especially as he goes into the New South Wales election cycle. Do you think about that? Do you think One Nation will also be a problem for you?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I of course want to see the Labor Party be as successful as possible, whether it be federally or in every single state and territory. What we saw with Farrer of course was a – context here, Sussan Ley was the local member for 25 years. She got removed pretty brutally without even giving a Budget reply by her own political party. She resigned on the spot and then obviously didn't campaign in the By-election. And we also saw in the way that that happened plotting on the day of a funeral of a former colleague, Andrew Hastie –
KARVELAS: But One Nation's rising [inaudible].
PRIME MINISTER: - and James Paterson and all the boys in the Liberal Party sitting down and talking about who would replace her, I think that jarred. 51 per cent of the people who vote in Farrer are women. It is no wonder that the support from women has been extraordinary –
KARVELAS: But on the question of the pressure on the Labor Party. Do you see it?
PRIME MINISTER: Oh look, we take every voter seriously and we respect every voter and you've got to respect an outcome. I congratulate the new member for Farrer on his election, David Farley.
KARVELAS: Have you talked to him?
PRIME MINISTER: No, he hasn't been elected yet. When he's here I will no doubt congratulate him. I treat people with respect in the Parliament across the board and so I meet with people across the Parliament. That's what I do. That's my job as Prime Minister and he has a job of representing the people for Farrer. And my door is always open for local members as well to put their case over issues which are there. But the truth is that One Nation have a history as well of people getting elected and not necessarily staying. They were very successful in 1998 in Queensland and at the end of that term they'd all either resigned or changed political allegiance. In New South Wales, in Chris Minns government there were three One Nation members. I don't think there are any now. They've all resigned including Mark Latham who are members of the Upper House. So, we'll wait and see what happens. One of the One Nation Senators who got elected has resigned already after the election and that was less than or just over a year ago, but they resigned pretty quickly. So, we'll wait and see. But we are a party of government. The Labor Party is the only political movement in Australia now that occupies the sensible centre.
KARVELAS: Let's go to that quickly, Prime Minister, because people don't seem that into the sensible centre. I mean maybe we're seeing a rise in actual people who want change. So, is it such an asset?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we give change, but it's change in the interests of people. And that's what we did in last night's Budget across the board, across economic policy, the savings that we've produced –
KARVELAS: Do you think people just want the centre? Maybe, there's a change in the mood of the country.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, people have a right, of course, to express their political views, but I think the views of the extreme left and the extreme right are a cul de sac that don't lead the country to where it needs to be. I want to be a mainstream leader in a mainstream political party that seeks to govern for all Australians. That works with business, that works with unions, that works with civil society, that advances the interests of people, regardless of their gender or who they are or their race or their religion, that represents everyone and brings the country together. That is how we will be successful. That is what has made Australia the most successful country on earth. And I want that to continue. That's my mandate and that is what I will do.
KARVELAS: Prime Minister, real pleasure to have you in the studio. Thank you.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks, PK.