PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: Prime Minister, welcome to Afternoon Briefing.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good to be with you, Patricia.
KARVELAS: Prime Minister, you said we're not about to go into Stage Three of the restrictions on fuel in an imminent way. What does that actually mean? What is the trigger to move to Stage Three?
PRIME MINISTER: What it means is that, at the moment, for this month, we have the same amount of ships that we would normally be expecting to come. So, we've seen, for example, petrol rise to 46 days. It began at 36 days, when the conflict began on February 28, so, at this point in time, things are going as good as they could have been expected to go. But we live in uncertain times. So, what that means is that, because the normal contracting time is about four to six weeks, we will know in advance along that sort of time frame if there's a real reduction in the amount of fuel that will be available.
KARVELAS: Okay, so what is the reduction that you'll be looking at to trigger that Stage Three?
PRIME MINISTER: What we'll look at is the full range of circumstances. What's happening with the conflict in the Middle East? Is it continuing? Is the Strait of Hormuz open? Are our supply countries such as Singapore, Brunei, receiving that feedstock in order to refine fuel? Are we able to get supplies from other countries which we have, the United States has gone up to 18 per cent, it was in a very low figure beforehand, and Argentina was virtually zero, and it's in double digits, so we're doing what we can to increase supply –
KARVELAS: In terms of that time frame, so in about four to six weeks, you'll be able to make determination about whether you need to go Stage Three?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I'll say, each four to six weeks in advance, we will know where we're at. So, next week we'll know where we'll be in four to six weeks' time from that. In a fortnight, we'll know four to six weeks from that as well.
KARVELAS: Okay, and if you think that there's been a reduction that is significant, that's when that will be triggered to move to the next stage?
PRIME MINISTER: That's when as well, we'll meet with states and territories. What we're trying to do here is to give people as much information as possible. We want for people to have as much notice as possible. We want people to do their bit as well. Every little bit helps, as the advertising says. So, we're seeing that. We're seeing people using their use of public transport, working from home more where it suits people and their businesses, and as well, conserve fuel through car sharing, et cetera.
KARVELAS: And Prime Minister, was there any discussion at the National Cabinet meeting about a National Fuel Reserve? WA has gone it alone – doing something that nationalises organising all of this?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we're doing that. That's what the supplies –
KARVELAS: But they've also got their independent supply –
PRIME MINISTER: Well, to be fair to WA, that's about 4 per cent of what the cargoes that we achieved in one day were, which is 100 million, the WA reserves are about four million litres. So, we've secured 300 million litres through the six cargoes that we've been able to achieve through Export Finance Australia.
KARVELAS: And just to be clear on this idea of developing new oil refineries. Are you open to ideas to pursue this, or not?
PRIME MINISTER: Look, I'm open to constructive ideas, where things add up –
KARVELAS: Have you received them?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, no, none in any detail. Of course, we've received vibes, if you like, of fuel reserves and of increased refinery capacity. But that takes time, as well. I've got to say, what we are really concentrating on, on a day-to-day basis, is how we secure that immediate supplies that Australia needs, particularly in diesel. We use twice as much diesel as we do petrol, and diesel is less elastic. That is, demand is less variable, because it's required for our agriculture sector, our resources sector, for our heavy vehicles to get goods on supermarket shelves. So, that is why we're particularly concentrating on diesel. But also aviation fuel, because of some of the actions that have been taken, we're getting less aviation fuel from China, which is one of the suppliers. So, at this stage, petrol is an increase in supply, and diesel and aviation fuel are basically pretty steady.
KARVELAS: And the fuel excise cut, is that something you're willing to extend if this continues?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we'll examine it at an appropriate time.
KARVELAS: What's your message to Australians? You're not going to turn the tap off? Or –
PRIME MINISTER: My message to Australians is, continue to do what overwhelmingly Australians are doing, do their bit to conserve fuel. Only take what you need. That message that we gave out just before Easter really did work. If you look at what happened to demand, it was expected there would be a big spike over Easter. That didn't occur. That's a good thing, because people were responsible. People still went about their business. Many people had the Easter weekend away at rural areas. That's important for our tourism sector and for small businesses in those communities as well.
KARVELAS: Prime Minister, on the 19th of March, you said you can see this war ending. A month later, can you see an end?
PRIME MINISTER: I can. I just hope it is as soon as possible. We have called for de-escalation. We know and your viewers will have heard different reports each and every day, sometimes more than one different report a day about whether the Strait was open, whether it was closed, whether the ceasefire would stop. Now, the ceasefire has been extended.
KARVELAS: Are you happy that President Trump has extended it indefinitely?
PRIME MINISTER: I am absolutely, happy with anything that is about de-escalation, because quite clearly, what I want to see is an end to the human impact, of course, that it's having as well. But the global economic impact means that even though this is a conflict right across the other side of the world, it is having an impact right here, right now.
KARVELAS: And have you contacted, spoken to Donald Trump at all?
PRIME MINISTER: We continue to have ongoing discussions with the US Administration, as we are with our friends right around the world.
KARVELAS: Okay, but no direct contact with the President?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what we do is we talk through the Administration, and we are in regular contact with them. I had the conversation during this conflict with President Trump. It was a good conversation, was a constructive conversation, as all of mine have been with him.
KARVELAS: And is the invitation to the President to come to Australia still open?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course, it's open. An American President would always –
KARVELAS: And has it been renewed? Have you pursued it since you last –
PRIME MINISTER: He knows where Australia is. An American President would always be welcome in Australia, including President Trump.
KARVELAS: Even this American President, who appears very unpopular in Australia?
PRIME MINISTER: President Trump, would always be welcome here, as would any US President.
KARVELAS: Was the NDIS overhaul mentioned at the National Cabinet meeting today?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
KARVELAS: Wasn't raised?
PRIME MINISTER: No, it's about – this was a meeting about fuel security, and all of the Premiers, Chief Ministers and myself were very much concentrating on that issue.
KARVELAS: Talk me through your decision making on the NDIS. You're a Labor Prime Minister. It was the Gillard Government that established the NDIS, and yet you are essentially kicking off 160,000 people, perhaps more, off the NDIS. That must have weighed heavily on you. Do you accept that there will be a big backlash to this?
PRIME MINISTER: No, I'm very proud that it's a Labor Government. A Labor Government of which I was a part, and a proud part of the Gillard Government that created the NDIS. And the NDIS has transformed so many lives. But we need to make sure that it's sustainable into the future. This isn't about politics. This is about people. This is about people with disabilities getting the care that they need so they can fully participate in society.
KARVELAS: With respect, Prime Minister, 160,000 fewer people with a disability will get support because of your changes.
PRIME MINISTER: Let's be clear. When the NDIS was conceived, it was expected that there would be something in the order of just over 400,000 people participating and benefiting from the NDIS. Now the original purpose of the NDIS has been changed. You can't have a system that had, when we came to office, a 22 per cent annual growth without it being undermined and without it not being sustainable –
KARVELAS: Do you really believe it was on the verge of collapse? That's been the Government rhetoric. Was it really on the verge of collapse, as it was going?
PRIME MINISTER: It was – if that continued with a 22 per cent increase, with some of the fraudulent activities that have been exposed and are there for all to see, with participants in the NDIS not getting the care that they need off providers with the skills to provide the care that they deserve, then the system would have been undermined. You would have seen a loss of public confidence in the system. And I think Australians are all proud that we have created what is not seen all around the world. This is world's best practice when got right, of giving people with disabilities that care that they need. And Australians want to be proud of it. They're happy to pay –
KARVELAS: And right now, they're not proud of it? You're not proud of where it's gone?
PRIME MINISTER: I am proud of the NDIS, but it can be better. It needs to go back to its original purpose so that people are at the centre of the NDIS.
KARVELAS: Do you accept that the Gillard Government rushed it out with bad rules? Bad guardrails?
PRIME MINISTER: Now, look over a period of time, quite clearly the Gillard Government wasn't in office when we came to office in 2022 –
KARVELAS: You built the thing. You built it wrong.
PRIME MINISTER: Over a period of time. What we've seen is a failure to appropriately regulate some of the providers. A demand-driven system where people came into the scheme without the skills to provide the services that people deserve. Now we need to make sure that they are getting the care that they need, but that they also deserve. That's what I want to see.
KARVELAS: And Prime Minister, 160,000 people and maybe more will be kicked off the scheme. Can you guarantee that you won't kick them off unless there are equivalent supports offered by the states?
PRIME MINISTER: We have a whole plan to go through, not just offered by the states. Importantly, we're offering federal funding here, as we did in the negotiations that we had with the states and territories when they all agreed to the Thriving Kids Program for example –
KARVELAS: But will you guarantee that none of those recipients kicked off, will be left worse off?
PRIME MINISTER: We want to make sure that they get the care that they need –
KARVELAS: You won't move to moving them off until that's guaranteed?
PRIME MINISTER: Every single Australian should get the care that they need. But what they shouldn't have – what we shouldn't have is a system that is growing exponentially, 22 per cent growth, unsustainable, costing more than Medicare and the PBS combined. Importantly here, what we're saying is that the funding will continue to grow at 2 per cent up till –
KARVELAS: Which is under inflation.
PRIME MINISTER: From a circumstance where you've had 22 per cent growth. Now, Bill Shorten did good work to get that growth down to 10 per cent. We need to do more. Mark Butler has been upfront about this and Jenny McAllister, and we haven't just come up with this on the back of an envelope –
KARVELAS: But it is a big change, Prime Minister, much bigger than any of us expected.
PRIME MINISTER: It is a big reform. Labor will always do the big reforms and will always do the right things, and that is what we are doing here.
KARVELAS: Is this also the biggest change that you going to be presiding over? I mean, you are taking basically a hack to a system that you made as a government. That must be a huge decision in terms of the deliberations around this. It’s a Labor brand -
PRIME MINISTER: It's a big decision to make sure that the system is sustainable and to make sure people get the help that they need. I grew up in a family, just me and my mother, was on disability pension, an invalid pension, it was called in those days. She didn't have the support that she needed. You know, she was crippled up with Rheumatoid Arthritis and had a range of health issues. Used to spend some years, almost as much time as she did in hospital as out of hospital. Now, had the NDIS been around in her time, she would have had a much greater quality of life –
KARVELAS: But under your new rules, would she still be able to be on the NDIS? That's a big question.
PRIME MINISTER: Absolutely. Because she was permanently incapacitated. She needed the sort of assistance and had she got that then the cost of her being in hospital for a long period of time, because there wasn't the sort of support out there in the community to enable her to participate with a quality of life that she deserved, wasn't there. Now what we're about with the NDIS is making sure that Australians with a disability, with that permanent incapacity, are able to get that support. What the NDIS was never intended to do was to have classrooms where four in ten kids were on the NDIS when –
KARVELAS: So, that leaves me to the state governments and Prime Minister they are not coming to the party. Queensland isn't. Chris Minns says he's not going to provide like-for-like. You've given extra hospital funding to the states. Are you going to play hardball with them and say, we have an expectation that you step up here?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, they know that that's the case, which is why they signed up –
KARVELAS: Do they lose their hospital funding though?
PRIME MINISTER: Which is why that – look, I'm not into that sort of – I'll leave those games somewhere else. This isn't about politics, it's not about argy-bargy. This is about getting it right for the sort of care that people deserve. So, we've said we'll put in place other systems in consultation, not just with states and territories, with providers, but also with the disability community themselves as well. One of the aspects of the NDIS was giving people empowerment as well. And the concern here with some of the activities that have occurred is that some of that's been taken away because unscrupulous providers without the skills haven't given people that ownership over their lives that they deserve.
KARVELAS: You want to rush through this legislation, through the Parliament. Have you called Angus Taylor and tried to get him on side?
PRIME MINISTER: I have called Angus Taylor, and we have offered briefings. We will do that. And I think that the Parliament should be constructive here and I hope that it is –
KARVELAS: Are you willing to negotiate then on some of this?
PRIME MINISTER: This is about doing the right thing. We have done a lot of work and they're aware of what the issues were. They presided over that 22 per cent funding increase annual. They know –
KARVELAS: So, you expect their support. Did you get any when you called Angus Taylor. Did you get any indication?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we haven't had a discussion yet, but he's been offered a briefing. And I am hopeful that this is a time when the Parliament, just like the Parliament supported the NDIS from its formation, I want to see that same Parliament, different people, but make the NDIS sustainable going forward.
KARVELAS: Prime Minister, just a couple of quick ones. Just on the gas tax, you've been saying, contrary to what a lot of the opponents of the gas industry have been saying, that they already pay a lot of tax. Do you think they pay enough tax?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, look, they pay around about $22 billion and importantly as well, one of the things I've said is that you do need to acknowledge the tens of billions of dollars of investment that occurs in order to have that gas extracted. And without that investment that's come from North America, that's come from Japan in Impex's case, then you wouldn't have, we wouldn't be having a debate because there wouldn't have been that extraction occur.
KARVELAS: Ok, so you will rule out a Gas Export Tax?
PRIME MINISTER: What I'm doing – the Budget, I don't do the rule in, rule out game as much as it's disappointing –
KARVELAS: I don't love the game either, but I just want to get an indication if you've gone off this idea. Treasury was looking at it. Do you think it's not wise to go down this road?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, good attempt to get the –
KARVELAS: Do it for the ABC.
PRIME MINISTER: The same answer. We'll have our Budget on May 12. What I do say though is that some of the arguments have been put forward, have been a bit disingenuous, and people putting them forward know that that's the case.
KARVELAS: What do you think of the gas companies putting together an advertising campaign against this then?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, they of course will advocate for their interests. What I'm trying to do here –
KARVELAS: Mining industry did it over the mining tax. What do you make of those sorts of tactics?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, they'll all do that and people will advocate for their interests. My interests are the interests of the Australian people.
KARVELAS: Just finally on property taxes, Capital Gains Tax. I know you're looking at all these things, and you've said you want to be ambitious in this Budget. What's changed your mind on these property taxes?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we'll have a budget on May 12 and it will hand down a series of revenues and expenditure proposals. What I do say is that we do need to look at, in any budget, equity. And part of that is intergenerational equity and I'm a Labor Prime Minister and I'll always look at fairness in the system.
KARVELAS: Do you think the Capital Gains Tax Discount at 50 per cent is unfair?
PRIME MINISTER: I say that the key to housing policy is supply. That was the case beforehand. That's still the case now.
KARVELAS: But is a tax like that unfair?
PRIME MINISTER: That's still the case now. Well, you're trying to get an answer once again –
KARVELAS: Well, I want to know because you said you're a Labor Prime Minister –
PRIME MINISTER: I am.
KARVELAS: And I fact check that, Prime Minister, you are. So, on the kind of idea and the values of that. Does that mean you – you're not comfortable with that tax concession?
PRIME MINISTER: No, what it means is that we will be, as always, looking at measures to make Australia a fairer place, to make sure that that occurs. When it comes to housing policy, though, our key is supply. That's why we've put in place the full suite of measures already, whether that be the increased public sector funding through the Housing Australia Future Fund, whether it be the shared equity scheme through Help to Buy, whether it be Build to Rent, encouraging private sector rentals, or whether it be the 5 per cent deposits that have enabled over 200,000 Australians to own their first home.
KARVELAS: But this Budget will be for young people?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that will be one of the things that we need to do.
KARVELAS: Not the centrepiece, for young people?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the centrepiece of the Budget will be about resilience. How do we make Australia more resilient? Now, we've had a global financial crisis. We've had Covid. And now we have this global conflict having a massive impact on the global economy. How do we make our economy more resilient? We do that by making more things in Australia, by making sure that we're less vulnerable to these international shocks of whatever form they take. So, that has other implications as well. In areas like cybersecurity, for example. How do we make us more resilient? But the other way that we make us more resilient is by making sure that people know they have an economic stake in the economy, that the economy works for them, not them just working for the economy. And that's why the tax measures that were put in place, including the automatic tax deduction, which will particularly benefit young people, and the tax cuts aimed at that first marginal tax rate to decrease on July 1 and then decrease again the year after, will particularly help young people.
KARVELAS: You are looking at some of these property taxes, and you're right, I mean, I know it's to be announced, but you are looking at them. You did say during the election campaign, I remember it, that you weren't doing these things. Is that a broken promise and does that matter?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it's now hypothetical on hypothetical.
KARVELAS: Well, we know you're looking at it. You haven't denied that. Would it be a broken process?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, people look at a range of measures. What you'll see on May 12 is an ambitious Labor Budget that will set us up not just for a year ahead, but we aim to put in place measures that advance Australia's national interest going forward.
KARVELAS: Prime Minister, thanks for coming on.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks very much, PK.