PATRICIA KARVELAS, HOST: For more on all of this, I've got the Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, in the studio with me. Welcome to the program.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good morning – or good afternoon.
KARVELAS: Yeah, we are now.
PRIME MINISTER: It's been a long day.
KARVELAS: It has. It feels like the morning still. We're very bright. The Nationals want you to go to an election. What is the threshold for big changes to go to an election?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the Nats, there's this thing called the constitution that the Nats don’t seem to understand either. We have elections every three years and there's got to be a period closer to that before the Governor-General will agree to an election. So, once again, it just shows their desperation, frankly. They don't want to engage in the serious policy debate. And the serious policy debate derives from something that I've heard right around the country, which is that young people can't get access to home ownership. And that concerns them. It concerns their parents and grandparents who say to me, ‘I'm worried that my grandson or granddaughter, Johnny or Mary, will never get what we had, which is access to the opportunity to have the security of a roof over their head’.
KARVELAS: Okay, so the idea was that it would be around housing, but it's wider. The Capital Gains Tax changes are much wider. Small business groups want you to lift the thresholds for the CGT concessions to companies with an annual turnover of up to $10 million. Are you willing to do that?
PRIME MINISTER: There are already, of course, four different concessions for small businesses. We're maintaining all of that –
KARVELAS: But would you – just Prime Minister, would you look at changing one of those concessions to make it higher than $2 million?
PRIME MINISTER: We're engaging in good faith with organisations, including the Council of Small Business Organisations. We said that on Budget night –
KARVELAS: So are you open to adjustment there?
PRIME MINISTER: What I'm not doing is policy on Afternoon Briefing. What I'm doing is treating organisations with the respect that they deserve by engaging with them in good faith. And Treasury are doing that across the board here. But these are, be clear about where the changes are. There are four elements to this. One – negative gearing, essentially making it just for new homes so that people will continue to be able to invest, get negative gearing, but they'll be increasing the assets of the nation, not just themselves, and that will help boost supply. Secondly, Capital Gains Tax, changing the system so that income earned from work, which is overwhelmingly how Australians get the income they get by with income earned from assets. And that is a sensible tax reform that is in the interests of the system working more smoothly. And importantly, the reason why it's all in one legislation is that every dollar across the forwards gained from those measures will be handed back to people through the increased income tax cuts, through the Working Australians Tax Offset and the $1,000 automatic tax deduction. So, this is good tax reform. It's something that has been put in the too hard basket for a long while. We want to deliver real change in this area.
KARVELAS: But if small business is concerned, do you think those four criteria are worth amending?
PRIME MINISTER: We'll engage in good faith. There'll be a Senate inquiry that will report on the 22nd. But what we know is that overwhelmingly there are already these concessions are in place and what we're moving from is one discount, the 50 per cent Capital Gains Tax discount, to a real discount based upon the real gains that are made and for them to be implemented in a sensible way.
KARVELAS: But this definition of a small business that gets the exemption, which is a $2 million turnover, I mean, times have changed. Do you think that may be a bit low?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we'll engage in good faith –
KARVELAS: I know but you –
PRIME MINISTER: We’ll engage in good faith –
KARVELAS: But you would have a view by now about whether that’s a bit low –
PRIME MINISTER: We will engage in good faith with people directly. as we have, Patricia. This began before Budget night. We continue to engage. The reason why, of course you can't have the full engagement on tax changes before a Budget is because the date of the Budget is when those changes come. So, you can't have insider trading effectively –
KARVELAS: I get that –
PRIME MINISTER: So, we're engaging as we said we would on Budget night.
KARVELAS: Okay. The WA Premier, Roger Cook, has called for carveouts for the mineral exploration sector from the Government's Capital Gains Tax changes. Is that part of the consultation?
PRIME MINISTER: Look, we're going to engage in good faith –
KARVELAS: Even on that issue?
PRIME MINISTER: People will put forward ideas, but the fundamentals will stay there, the integrity of the system will stay there. And what we don't want to do is to shut down some loopholes and create others. That's the whole point here. The loopholes have been available so that for so many people who have vastly more income than your nurses, your people who work in supermarkets, the people who work in aged care, who overwhelmingly have to pay their tax through the pay as you earn system, they don't get the opportunity to offset and minimise their tax through various measures. And what we're doing as part of tax reform is increasing the integrity of the system. So, people shouldn't expect big changes –
KARVELAS: Given the –
PRIME MINISTER: But we will engage in good faith.
KARVELAS: Given the short time frame for this particular Senate inquiry, do you expect to pass this before the mid-winter break?
PRIME MINISTER: That is what we want to see happen, we want to give that certainty. There'll be further legislation down the track, as we've said, but this provides the framework for the changes that are going forward.
KARVELAS: Okay. And in terms of, you know, that framework going forward, what's your message to hairdressers, people who, you know, work in different small businesses, should they be optimistic that they might see some shift from you?
PRIME MINISTER: People who work in small businesses overwhelmingly are people who pay their income taxes. They're not people who have trusts, the actual workers in those businesses –
KARVELAS: No, but when they sell their businesses –
PRIME MINISTER: They're the owners of small business, not the workers who work for those small businesses. But bear in mind those small businesses, we're talking Capital Gains Tax. It's only when it's realised, it's only when the business is sold and the business will be sold based upon the real gains after inflation that they make. And good on them. We want to –
KARVELAS: Should they feel optimistic that you might –
PRIME MINISTER: We want to support small business. These changes are good for small business. They will provide that certainty going forward, and we're very positive. That's why we've made sure the carveouts which are there for small business already in the existing system will be maintained. Importantly as well, importantly as well, the tax changes only start on the 1 July 2027. So, up until that point, it's the existing system. So, it's only the change from 1 July 2027 that will apply, if you like.
KARVELAS: Okay, so is your message the carveouts will be small, don't expect too much change here?
PRIME MINISTER: My message is we have a process that we've established. It's a good process. It will allow for people to make submissions. And we've already had, separate to the Senate inquiry, the Treasury have had roundtables with ACCI, the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry, with the Council of Small Business Associations, with various business groups across the board –
KARVELAS: And that's wider than the startups, which is why I'm asking about these other businesses.
PRIME MINISTER: We have engaged with all of those businesses as we do. My Government is pro-aspiration. We want people to be able to aspire to have a successful business. We want people to be able to aspire to have a home of their own, and we want opportunity to be spread. What is occurring as a direct result of the tax system and flaws in it. Since 1999, you've seen overwhelmingly investment channelled into housing rather than into the productive, more productive side of the economy –
KARVELAS: Sure, but that, that's why the Commonwealth Bank boss says ring fence it to housing these tax changes. That's the call.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, what we do – well, lots of people will make calls over the next week –
KARVELAS: But wouldn't it be easy to sell your housing argument if it was only about housing?
PRIME MINISTER: Lots of people will make changes, but what that wouldn't do is fix the break that's there. Where if I'm a worker working in a supermarket, paying my taxes every week, it comes out of my pay as part of my salary. I never get ahead. I'm working hard, I'm trying to save for a deposit. I'm not, you know, got big investments going through. I've got a vehicle and an ambition to own my own home. Why should that person be, not, not able to get that equal opportunity that someone who is earning an income good on them from their assets? But why is that treated more preferentially than people who work hard in order to get every single dollar to try to get by?
KARVELAS: Prime Minister, a couple of other questions. Sam Altman is the head of OpenAI. He said this week that Australia could be a data centre capital of the world. Do you want it to be?
PRIME MINISTER: We could.
KARVELAS: Do you want to be a data centre capital of the world?
PRIME MINISTER: AI is very important. We want to see more investment. One of the things we're doing is engaging with data centres with AI, with all of this new opportunity which is there, because one of the things that we can do in Australia, of course, because of our space, frankly, is to have renewable energy provide power in a way that countries to our north in Asia, for example, will have difficulty in doing. So, we're engaging in good faith with AI. We think there are –
KARVELAS: Sucks up a lot of energy, though, and there's, if you, I mean, I know you watch politics around the world, in the US, this is going to have an impact on the Midterm Elections. There is a big backlash to some of these data centres.
PRIME MINISTER: There's a big backlash because of the lessons that can be learnt there, which is about not taking energy from households but making sure that there's additional energy added to power the centres. And in addition to that, one of the things we want to make sure. AI is happening –
KARVELAS: Do you use it?
PRIME MINISTER: It is a reality. I've had minimal use of it, but certainly it's used in some areas of government. We're very conscious about it. But we think there is enormous opportunity, but we need to shape it as well, in the interests of humanity. We need to make sure that we keep control of it as we go forward. And everyone has a view. Indeed, Pope Leo –
KARVELAS: Yes.
PRIME MINISTER: The Holy Father had a very important paper that he released just this week with the Head of Anthropic. And so this is an issue which confronts us –
KARVELAS: Well, it confronts an entire generation –
PRIME MINISTER: It does –
KARVELAS: Well, there are proposals for having a living wage to help with all of the job losses that will come. Young people are being perhaps locked out of opportunity. Surely that worries you as well.
PRIME MINISTER: Jobs will also be created. That's the point with new technology. New technology, inevitably, yes, does lead to changes in workplaces, but it also creates new activity. If you think about the technology that's in this studio now, that we're talking on –
KARVELAS: Sure. Robots are basically broadcasting us.
PRIME MINISTER: Compared with – well, they are controlling the cameras here. That is very different from the system that was in place in this House, in this Parliament when it was opened in 1988. Now that has brought opportunity. So, that, for example, one of the things in this place as well was the idea of a 24 hour network. That's a result of new technology. The very existence of ABC having a news network 24 hours a day –
KARVELAS: Well, it's very true. Prime Minister, I'm going to get in trouble for trying to keep you for 24 hours soon, but I've got a few questions. Okay. The New South Wales Government wants additional funding from the Commonwealth, from you, to monitor and resettle the ISIS bride cohort. Will you give it to them?
PRIME MINISTER: Every State Government wants more money for everything. Look, we'll engage in good faith with these issues.
KARVELAS: Don't you think the Commonwealth has to step up –
PRIME MINISTER: We’ll engage in good faith. I won't discuss issues related to national security on your program, frankly. And they will take place between the authorities. And I have every faith in the authorities doing the work that they need to do and they'll do it in cooperation with State Governments.
KARVELAS: Now that they are here though, given people are concerned about their arrival and you have been criticised from the Coalition, I don't want to go into all that critique. Are you guaranteeing to the Australian public that they are safe with these families back here?
PRIME MINISTER: Public safety is absolutely the first, second, third, fourth and fifth priority. We must remember that in excess of 40 ISIS fighters came here over during the life of the former government and that they left Australia to fight while they were in office as well. Now, I have contempt for people who fight for an ideology that is completely against Australian values. What we do is make sure that Australia's interests are looked after, and that safety is absolutely our prime responsibility and our first concern.
KARVELAS: Prime Minister, the NACC is supposed to restore trust. What does it say when the person who leads the organisation has now resigned? Has it damaged trust?
PRIME MINISTER: No. People come and go from senior positions, including in public service positions. I wish Mr. Brereton well. He's resigned –
KARVELAS: He didn't damage the institution?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, there wasn't one before we came to office. It had been called for for a long period of time and indeed was promised by successive governments, including, of course, Scott Morrison's. They just didn't do it. We promised it, we delivered it.
KARVELAS: Okay. I have just a couple of others because I can't help myself. One is the Coalition has been saying they want to change the Sex Discrimination Act to redefine women as biological women. Do you think that should happen?
PRIME MINISTER: Look, I'm not engaging in culture wars here. What my priority has been is bringing down the Budget and discussing those issues –
KARVELAS: They say lots of women want these spaces –
PRIME MINISTER: That's my priority. Look, we have a major program of women's safety and $4.4 billion of investment. It's the biggest investment that we have had, that any government has ever had –
KARVELAS: So, no appetite for changing the definition?
PRIME MINISTER: I'm concerned about issues that Australians are concerned about, which is domestic violence. We launched just last Friday the discussion plan on the second National Plan to End Domestic Violence Against Women and Children. Our concentration is very much –
KARVELAS: So, you don't see it as a women's safety issue?
PRIME MINISTER: It's very much there. Look, it depends what you're asking me. I haven't seen the Coalition stuff, so you know, the Coalition will look for culture wars. What I'm interested in is, of course, protecting women. It's important that women's spaces be available for women.
KARVELAS: Okay. Finally, something unparliamentary was said, according to Tony Burke. Another paper has reported on that unparliamentary language from Angus Taylor, the Opposition Leader. I'm not going to repeat it because I'm a very polite person. Did you hear it?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course I did.
KARVELAS: What was it?
PRIME MINISTER: I'm not about to do it on, on –
KARVELAS: Got to make you say it, I'm not going to say it.
PRIME MINISTER: No, no. Well, I just think that people swearing across the chamber isn't appropriate –
KARVELAS: So, Angus Taylor swore at you?
PRIME MINISTER: It was withdrawn and the matter's closed as far as I'm concerned.
KARVELAS: Okay. So, no hard feelings?
PRIME MINISTER: It says something about the frustration that the Coalition are in. I think that a lot of the language that they're using is very desperate. They're not engaged in serious policy development. They are trying to mirror One Nation. They're interested in fighting One Nation. I'm interested in fighting for our nation.
KARVELAS: You mentioned One Nation. The Redbridge poll shows that they could be your official Opposition. Are you prepared for that?
PRIME MINISTER: The next election's a long way away and I'm dealing with the current Opposition. And we don't take anything for granted going forward either. The presumption in your question is that we would still be the government. We take nothing for granted. What we are concerned about, though, is delivering real change for Australians, whether it be the strengthening of Medicare, today's Public Education Day, the reform, giving full and fair funding to every public school so that all schools are now fully funded over the next period of the Agreement, the housing policy, making sure people can get the roof over their head, the energy transition, whilst dealing with challenges like the global fuel crisis, which is there. That's what I'm focused on, the big changes that Australia needs. And I'm concerned about delivering real change in those areas because we can't afford to be distracted by other issues.
KARVELAS: Prime Minister, I'm sure your Press Office is going to be cranky that I've taken up all your time, but I suppose I don't mind that much. Thank you so much for coming in.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks, Patricia.