SARAH FERGUSON, HOST: Prime Minister, welcome.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good to be with you.
FERGUSON: What is driving this switch to more central control of artificial intelligence? Is it voter angst about the impact on their jobs, on their communities, on their safety?
PRIME MINISTER: That this change is happening, and we either allow it to take its course without any control or regulation, or we're determined to shape the change. Artificial intelligence is here, it's having an impact on all of our lives, on the way that we work, the way that the economy functions, but we need to seize the opportunities that come with it. Shape it, so it is in Australia's interests, which was the theme of the speech today.
FERGUSON: So, just so I understand it, in terms of this new office that's going to sit within your office in the government, all those issues around safety, around planning, around workplace copyright, will they be finally determined in that office?
PRIME MINISTER: So there is coordination. Well, they'll be determined in the Cabinet Room, which is where we make decisions as a government. But what we will have is a coordination body at the highest level of government in the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet. We will have Australian standards for AI, they will be world's best practice, and we can set an agenda - I think not just for Australia but for the world. We’re an attractive destination for investment because of the advantages that we have. We're a Five Eyes country, we have space that is required for these new data centres. We have an opportunity located where we are in the fastest growing region of the world, and we need to seize the opportunities, but we also need to manage the risks which are there to make sure that we're not destroying jobs, that we're creating jobs.
FERGUSON: The scale of AI investment is mind-boggling. You said in the speech today you want to do more than manage investments from elsewhere but isn't that what you're doing? Canada is spending $2 billion building sovereign computer capacity for Canada. The UK is doing the same. You say today the NBN is a good example of sovereign capability in Australia. Why not do the same with AI?
PRIME MINISTER: What we will be doing is managing what will overwhelmingly be private sector investment -
FERGUSON: But why are those countries, why is the UK and Canada doing investment in sovereign capability and we're not?
PRIME MINISTER: This will be all about sovereignty, but the way that you'll do that is by having Australian standards and Australian rules around it so that there's clarity. If you come and invest here, your investment is welcome, but these are the conditions. So you want to build a big data centre, you have to provide the energy so that's additional to the grid. You have to pay for transmission. If there is any additional water usage, you have to fund that as well, and it needs to be located in an appropriate location as well. So setting those standards, providing that clarity and that certainty, will add to Australia as an important investment destination. This has the opportunity to transform the way that our society functions, and that will occur. It's a matter of whether you sit back and allow it to take its course, or whether you shape it, and we're determined to shape it.
FERGUSON: Let me just go to those questions around energy. You say you're putting, you're going to put hard expectations on companies building data centres here. Of course, what's happened in other places, including in the US, is that communities have seen their power bills go up. Can you guarantee that we will protect Australians from those kinds of impacts we've seen elsewhere?
PRIME MINISTER: Yes, and that's the point of having Australian standards and being very clear upfront, getting ahead of these issues, rather than trying to retrofit once it has occurred.
FERGUSON: Well, who will be responsible for ensuring that a data centre does not exceed its energy or water use?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, as a condition of approval, and that's why I'll take the proposition for Australian standards to a meeting of the National Cabinet next month, because a lot of planning approvals, of course, come through state and local government. So we want the three tiers of government to work together with the private sector, with Australian businesses, and one of the benefits of having the Office of Artificial Intelligence in the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet is working with those bodies outside, including in our universities, who are working in this area to make sure that we get this right, that we shape this change in Australia's interests.
FERGUSON: Just to be clear, those standards will be the same across the country? If you're a data centre builder, you will face the same standards in Victoria that you would in the Northern Territory or Western Australia?
PRIME MINISTER: That's precisely why we're taking it to the National Cabinet. I think that's important because otherwise what you will have is states playing each other off and companies trying to take advantage, as occurs with areas like sporting events. So, an operator goes to one state and says, ‘If you give us a bigger incentive, we'll come to you rather than another state’. We need to stop that. We need a national approach. I think there will be recognition from the Premiers and Chief Ministers, that this is a national interest question, which is why we're getting ahead of that, and I'll convene the National Cabinet.
FERGUSON: And again for clarity, these standards, these will be more than expectations? These will be conditions that must be met and adhered to?
PRIME MINISTER: These are mandatory. It's very clear that that's what we're doing. Just as we want to mandate as well issues such as intellectual property, frankly, so that if you're a journalist or a musician or a writer, you continue to have control over what is, after all, your property, your creativity, and that you not only have control over its use, but you also are paid if you agree to it being used.
FERGUSON: So this is obviously one of the most controversial points for those overseas investors coming here. They say that it's unrealistic for them to have to negotiate with every single rights holder. You're telling them, companies like Anthropic, that that is what they must do?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that's exactly right. And when you actually look at the way it would operate in practice as well, there are in the music industry, for example, overwhelmingly there are a number of major operators -
FERGUSON: Sure, but there are also individuals, and –
PRIME MINISTER: Correct.
FERGUSON: And more so in the current environment.
PRIME MINISTER: No, that's correct, and we want to make sure that their interests are protected.
FERGUSON: So you're prepared to see a company like Anthropic, with the massive potential investment it's got on the table in Australia, you're prepared for them to walk away rather than bend on that issue of copyright?
PRIME MINISTER: We're confident that the advantages that Australia provides will see significant investment here. I've met with a range of the companies. We've made clear to them our position, and today we've made that very publicly clear as well. We've said that we'll have the National Cabinet to get that coordination. We've set up the Office of Artificial Intelligence today, and early next year we'll be legislating.
FERGUSON: On the subject of jobs, now, it's the case that the jobs apocalypse hasn't quite arrived in the way that many of the big players thought it would, but some of that is to do with maybe slower than expected adoption of AI at the, kind of, enterprise level. How do you secure jobs? Because it may not be an apocalypse, but they're still talking about very significant changes to the working life of a country like Australia. How do you secure jobs beyond the kind of motherhood statements?
PRIME MINISTER: What you recognise is that with every form of new technology, jobs do change –
FERGUSON: Yeah but this is not a new form of technology like another. You've got people like Demis Hassabis from Google saying this is bigger than the industrial revolution. This is equivalent to fire, the discovery of fire.
PRIME MINISTER: It’s incredibly significant, no question about that. But what also is clear is that jobs will be created. Jobs will change in the way that they function, and that's happening now. So it isn't a question of if or when. The key question is, how. How does artificial intelligence have an impact on the way that we work? The way that we engage socially? On the way that our country operates both domestically, but also internationally as well? And what we want to do is to seize the opportunities which are there by mitigating the risks which are there. By making sure as well that you build that social licence, and you build social licence by making sure that people's concerns, which are legitimate, are dealt with in an open, frank, and clear way, and providing clarity, both the benefits, but also the obligations, that will come with this investment.
FERGUSON: Your colleague, former Cabinet colleague Ed Husic, says that term ‘social licence’ is almost meaningless when it comes to a technology as powerful as this.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it's not at all. The fact is that social licence is what companies want. It's what the ABC wants as well -
FERGUSON: Yeah, but you don’t do it without regulation as well.
PRIME MINISTER: And I've already said that we're doing that, and that's something that Ed wouldn't be familiar with because this has been a Cabinet process. There's been a lot of consultation in the lead-up to today's speech, which reflects a Cabinet decision that was made earlier this week, but not one that occurred with just one discussion. One that occurred as my government operates, properly, having processes, giving consideration, coming to an orderly decision, and then setting up a time frame for implementation on delivering a positive outcome.
FERGUSON: Just on the question of jobs, the ACTU wants enforceable agreements where businesses must consult their workers before introducing AI. Do you support that?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, enterprise bargaining, of course, occurs, and that encourages employers and employees –
FERGUSON: Sure, and on that specific question?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, that encourages employers and employees to work together. I don't sit in those negotiations, that's something that's worked out between employers and employers.
FERGUSON: Do you support the concept that workers should have a say as to whether or not a particular AI is introduced into a workplace?
PRIME MINISTER: I support the concept that businesses and unions are always better off, and businesses which are most successful are ones that bring their workforce with them, including on the journey of change.
FERGUSON: What happens if workers don't want to introduce AI and owners of a company do?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, AI is happening. It's having an impact immediately. I'm sure in this studio in the ABC –
FERGUSON: So you're encouraging workers to allow the entry of AI into their workplaces?
PRIME MINISTER: I'm encouraging workers to recognise that artificial intelligence is happening. Change is happening, and they have an interest in shaping that change, because if not, then they don't get a say. So I'm encouraging constructive engagement. Businesses can have massive productivity benefits from use of AI. We are seeing that. We need to make sure that workers, though, aren't shut out of those discussions. They have an interest in businesses being successful because the more successful businesses means better workplaces and better conditions.
FERGUSON: Prime Minister, thank you very much indeed for joining us.
PRIME MINISTER: Thank you.