NICK BRYANT, HOST: Prime Minister, thanks for joining us on Saturday Extra.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Wonderful to be here.
BRYANT: I would say that Saturday morning in Australia is my favourite time. I just think you see the spirit of Australia. I wonder what the Prime Minister of Australia gets up to on a Saturday morning in Australia.
PRIME MINISTER: Not much difference between what I get up to on Friday morning or Thursday morning, I've got to say. Unfortunately, it's a workday. Every day's a workday. But occasionally I still play in the Sydney Badge tennis competition, and round one is in fact today. So, I get to play tennis. I find it a complete break because the thing about tennis is it's a simple game. You hit the ball over the net between the lines. You can't think of anything else. And so, it's really important for mental health as well as physical exertion.
BRYANT: Is it a metaphor for politics?
PRIME MINISTER: I think politics can be a bit more complex than that. But it is, you know, you don't have your phone on. You play four sets in each match, and you can't have your phone on. And it's at a fairly low grade, but it's competitive and it's played in a good spirit. So, it's a good chance to be with your teammates and to meet other people as well.
BRYANT: You can escape the world for a little bit. Last Saturday was Anzac Day. For many Australians, that day encapsulates the spirit of Australia. Because of the controversy surrounding Australia these days, it's almost become a de facto national day. And yet we heard booing for the Welcomes to Country in Sydney and Melbourne. How worrying did you find that?
PRIME MINISTER: I did find it disconcerting. A Welcome to Country is just an act of politeness. It is Indigenous Australians, many of whom of course fought for Australia, including -- there were veterans who were doing the Welcomes to Country at places like Sydney. For them to be booed is, in my view, a break with the Australian spirit. It's disrespectful of First Nations people, but it's disrespectful as well of our Anzacs and of that special day. There is no place for it. I think last year when it occurred during the election campaign, the fact that some people then chose to basically back it in, say that it should question -- I think Peter Dutton tried to politicise it. Not on the day, his comments were entirely appropriate and condemned the booing. But it only took about 48 hours before there was an attempt to politicise that.
BRYANT: I wonder how the Voice referendum plays into that. There was this concern after the failure of the Voice referendum that there would be an attempt to reverse some of the gains that Indigenous Australians have made over the past 20 or 30 years. And Welcomes to Country are part of that. Does that worry you that some of the gains that have been made, because of the failure of the Voice, it seems to have emboldened people to sort of question them and push back against them?
PRIME MINISTER: It has, but at the same time, we should remember the millions of Australians who voted for Indigenous recognition. I, of course, think that the result was very disappointing. It was for a non-binding advisory committee of Indigenous Australians elected to give advice to Government on matters that affected them. So it wouldn't have impacted overwhelmingly the majority of Australians, but it was recognition in the form that Indigenous Australians had asked for. And so it was unfortunate, but we respected the outcome. And at the same time, I think it did lift up the debate about Indigenous issues, and we need to have that. We need to recognise the need to Close the Gap.
BRYANT: But when you hear those boos in reflective times, in quieter times, do you sometimes think to yourself, "I might've made a mistake here in going for the Voice." We could have done an elegant dismount. When we could have, when we didn't get bipartisan support, which was a signal that it wouldn't get up, we could have retreated. We wouldn't have unleashed this kind of attack on Welcomes to Country. Do you ever have that kind of moment of pause?
PRIME MINISTER: The First Nations people themselves were determined, they wanted it put to a vote, and I respected that. I take responsibility for the decision, of course. As Prime Minister, I did have other options, but I take responsibility for it. But if not in 2023, what was the purpose of the whole First Nations Constitutional Convention if you never put recognition to a vote of the Australian people? That was the request. I think it was a gracious request, as the Uluru Statement from the Heart says itself, to walk with First Nations people on a journey of reconciliation. And we did that. It's the first and only referendum that's been held this century. We had the courage to do it and to then to campaign for it. I did that. I put everything into it. It was disappointing, but we accept the outcome. But like all of these measures of the way that history goes forward, one of the things that I think sometimes progressives can do is romanticise the past of it too. People will say to me, "the Labor party's not what it used to be." I go, "no, well, one of our planks" -- we'll celebrate in a week's time, we'll be celebrating the 125th anniversary of the formation of Australia through Federation and the first meeting of the Federal Parliamentary Labor Party. One of its planks was the White Australia policy. We only had four. History has moved forward and history will continue to move forward, but it doesn't move forward in a straight line.
BRYANT: History's coming at us thick and fast at the moment. And we have the Iran war. This week, we saw a consequence of that. Inflation leapt to 4.6 per cent. Interest rates will almost certainly rise again. One of the things I love about Saturday morning in Australia is the optimism you see of the Australian people, but I don't sense that optimism right now. I sense real fears and anxieties about what's coming down the pipe. In your view, what is coming down the pipe?
PRIME MINISTER: We live in a volatile world, and I can't think of a time where that was more the case in my lifetime. We have a land war in Europe that's been going on for years now with the Russian invasion of Ukraine. We have conflict in the Middle East. That is having an impact right around the world, even though we are not protagonists in that war. We are impacted by it, as is the whole of the world. We have a breakdown in the system of norms that we could take for granted, such as support for trade being a good idea with the rise of protectionism and nationalism. We have a rise of populism, of the far right, but also elements of the far left as well. And so, some of the certainties that were there have been taken away from us. And I think that understandably creates some anxiety in people, but we will work these things through at the same time. What you see is shoots of what the world will look like going forward. You see more cooperation between the non-superpowers, to put it that way, of China and the United States, than ever before. The cooperation of the coalition that has been meeting of which Australia's a participant in support of Ukraine and the international rule of law. The meeting that I participated in just a couple of weeks ago convened by the leaders of the UK, France, Germany, and Italy. You see the visit of Prime Minister Carney from Canada here as well. Tomorrow, Prime Minister Takaichi will arrive in Australia from Japan. You see these, a changing globe, helping to shape it.
BRYANT: Prime Minister, what I'm hearing here is a subtle distancing from the United States.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the United States is playing a different role now. It has retreated from some of its previous positions on economic policy, for example, when it comes to protectionism and the imposition of tariffs. It's a very different position from the historic pro-market position that the United States has held. The fact that it made the decision, without consulting allies, to launch the war on Iran is a different position from where they've been historically. And the world is adjusting to that change. I mean, the United States themselves, President Trump was elected on a platform of America First. And so, that changes the dynamic in the world. Western democracies have adjusted to that.
BRYANT: You're treading very gingerly here, as you always do when you talk about the American administration and Donald Trump, but the tenor of your remarks seems to be suggesting that you think it was a mistake for Donald Trump to launch Operation Epic Fury.
PRIME MINISTER: It is not a mistake to say that Iran needs to be prevented from having a nuclear weapon, because the consequences of that are that you then have an arms race, a nuclear arms race in the region with Saudi Arabia, with Türkiye. And I think Iran's actions as well in the way that they have attacked Gulf states, including states that previously have had quite close relationships with them such as Qatar, says something about the nature of that regime, which is a theocracy, which is guided by a different perspective about conflict as well.
BRYANT: But weren't you surprised that the President of the United States launched this military operation without thinking about the economic consequences? He seemed shocked that the Strait of Hormuz has been shut, and that's the most obvious consequence of any military action in the Middle East. Doesn't that surprise you that he didn't realise that?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it's not up to me to give a running commentary on –
BRYANT: You always say this. You always use this. 'It's not for me to do a running commentary'. But I'm asking you to comment on one of the major issues facing geopolitics in the world right now. You surely will offer some words on that.
PRIME MINISTER: What I've said is what the United States should, in our view, do now which is, we have called for deescalation, we've called for an end to the conflict. And the opening up of the Strait of Hormuz without privatisation, that is without tolls or breaking down what is a really important principle, the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea, that allows for the passage of trade to occur. Now, if that breaks down there, then there's a range of straits around the world and the South China Sea and other important parts of our seas and oceans that – it's important, that global trade. That would be a breakdown in that system, which has been so important for lifting up the economic opportunities right around the world.
BRYANT: It's Saturday Extra. I'm Nick Bryant. I'm talking, as you doubtless realise, because the voice is so familiar, to the Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese. Mark Carney, you mentioned there, delivered a very strong speech in Davos. I wonder what you made of that speech. I wonder whether you wish you could make that speech. It seems that an Australian Prime Minister at the moment can't make that speech because AUKUS hangs like the Sword of Damocles over you. I dare say there were things he said which you would like to say.
PRIME MINISTER: Go back and have a look at my speech to the United Nations in New York, the General Assembly. Mark Carney used some of the exact language that I used.
BRYANT: You think that it was plagiarism?
PRIME MINISTER: No, no. But he took from that speech, the view very strongly that I put that middle powers needed to work together. And that's something that we haven't just spoken about. It's what we've done since we came to office in 2022. If you have a look at bringing all of the ASEAN leaders to Melbourne that I did in March of 2023, if you have a look at the leadership we've provided in the Pacific Island Forum, the work that we've done through the Group of Four connected up with the NATO meetings. Australia, New Zealand, Japan, and South Korea. If you have a look at the way that we've engaged with Europe with our free trade agreement that we've been able to land there. This is something that Australia has done. We have reengaged with our region and the world. We've repaired the relationship with China and it's much more stable than it was when I came to office. It's been very much a focus. And I must say that we are reaping the benefit at the moment through the deals that we've been able to do on fuel security.
BRYANT: We were talking about your speech to the UN. We were talking about Mark Carney's speech at Davos. What did he make of the King of Australia's speech this week in Congress? Quite critical, wasn't it, of Donald Trump?
PRIME MINISTER: It was terrific. It was very respectful. It was respectful, appropriately, but he put a view that was strong and a good message about the role that he wants to see the United States play, about the relationship between the US and the UK in particular, of course, but also threw Australia in there for good measure.
BRYANT: AUKUS got a few mentions. You'd be glad to hear that.
PRIME MINISTER: It did. And King Charles is very conscious of the role that he has as Australia's head of state.
BRYANT: He spoke about the checks and balances of the US system. I mean, a lot of people interpreted that as a kind of coded attack on Donald Trump acting in a kind of monarch-like way, almost sort of excessive in his executive power. Do you think he had a point?
PRIME MINISTER: I think really what the point that he was making was that the system of the United States is by far the largest economy still in the world. They play a critical role. And the relationship, for example, between Australia and the United States is, yes, I have a relationship with President Trump, but it's a relationship of our economies with investment that occurs, with businesses that are based in both of our countries. It's a relationship between our defence forces. We have people embedded in the US system and vice versa. It's much more than just who the President or the Prime Minister of the day is, and there's a history there as well that makes it very important, just like the relationship between Australia and the UK. I think those traditional relationships remain very important and central to us. The US remains our most important ally, but that doesn't mean that we're not out there engaging with others as well.
BRYANT: I think what you've said today is really interesting. You've expressed real support for Mark Carney, probably the most critical Prime Minister of the Trump administration there is. You've expressed support for what Prince Charles said, which was regarded as –
PRIME MINISTER: King Charles.
BRYANT: King Charles, sorry. Old habits die hard. You've expressed support for what was seen as a coded attack on Donald Trump. It seems to me you're sort of in the process of de-risking Australia's relationship with the Trump administration here, and the United States.
PRIME MINISTER: No, not at all. You can have a positive – and I have a constructive relationship with President Trump, as people have seen, and that's important as Australia's Prime Minister. But it is also the case that that doesn't mean that we're synonymous. That doesn't mean that we don't stand up for Australia's national interest. The reason why I have forged a constructive relationship with President Trump is that it's in Australia's national interest to do so. But we have different positions over trade and tariffs, over the relationship in the region, over a range of issues. This week, we did the News Media Bargaining Incentive.
BRYANT: That won't please him at all. Donald Trump has put himself at the head of a populist movement. The figurehead of that movement here in Australia is Pauline Hanson. The big political story since you won last year is the rise in One Nation. What do you put that down to? How much does that concern you?
PRIME MINISTER: A range of factors. One, the decline in the mainstream conservative parties. I think one of the reasons why we won 94 seats last year was that the Liberal National Coalition didn't put forward a positive agenda at all. They were defined by what they were against rather than what they were for, and defined by attacking the government of the day, the Labor Government, which I'm proud to lead. And secondly, the pace of change is so fast that a political movement that says, "Stop. We want things to go back to where they were in the past, and to romanticise that past," is something that is attractive to some people who are frustrated by the cost-of-living pressures, the fact that things like employment – when I finished school, I did my last exam in the HSC on a Thursday afternoon, I think, or Thursday morning. And I started work, I'd done all the exams, I started work at the Commonwealth Bank the next Monday morning. And I did that because it was a publicly owned bank. There was security. If you had asked me then, where would I be in 10 years' time or 20 years' time? I would've said, "Working for the Commonwealth Bank." And you know, you work your way up in an institution. The world is very different today.
BRYANT: Nostalgic nationalism is definitely a key factor. I spoke to somebody recently who really knows their Australian politics, they came up with an interesting theory. One of the reasons they cited for the rise of One Nation was the discrepancy between the size of your parliamentary victory and the size of the Labor vote and your win. It was a landslide, but it was a loveless landslide. And people felt that that result last year was not entirely representative.
PRIME MINISTER: I bet you that was from someone who would regard themselves as progressive. And I'll ask you a question here.
BRYANT: It's pretty neutral, actually. I think it was an academic, actually.
PRIME MINISTER: One of the things that people look for often as well is to question completely, 'what have you done for us lately?' One of the things that happens with the pace – and in part, devices is one of the factors, I think that leads to a polarisation across the world, and people going into corridors and they just dig deeper and go further to the far left or far right, because that's where the algorithms lead them. And so, it also tells them that everyone agrees with their point of view, because that's all that they see. I remember, I'm going – Western Sydney international airport will open in a little while. And my first campaign, my main opponents were the No Aircraft Noise Party who wanted to close Sydney Airport, effectively. No aircraft noise. And there were people there who were so angry and believed that they got robbed of the election campaign because everyone they talked to told them that was the case. Forget about the fact it's the biggest employer in my electorate. And so, I think that is a factor as well that can lead people to more extreme positions. And in One Nation's case often saying, "the reason why your lot in life is not better is because of people who don't look like you." And that to me can be, that's an issue that is a phenomenon we're seeing with the rise of, whether it be Nigel Farage in the UK or AFD in Germany, right around the world, we're seeing a rise in that right-wing populism.
BRYANT: Prime Minister, I'm getting the hard rap here from your press people.
PRIME MINISTER: We're just getting started.
BRYANT: I know. I'm enjoying the conversation. It's absolutely fascinating. You've been very generous with your time. Thank you so much for joining us on Saturday Extra and good luck with the tennis.
PRIME MINISTER: Absolute pleasure.