RAF EPSTEIN, HOST: The Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, is in Melbourne. He will be at Neale Daniher’s state funeral at the MCG. Good morning, thanks for coming.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good morning. Good to be here.
EPSTEIN: Look, I’ll get to that really moving occasion later on. There are American attacks on Iran right now. Do you have any idea what Donald Trump is trying to achieve?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we continue to call for de-escalation. President Trump is clearly responding to the downing of the Apache helicopter that occurred by Iranian fire. We want to see peace break out in the region in a permanent way, because this is obviously having a human impact on the region, but it’s having an impact on the entire globe. Global inflation being spiked. It’s remarkable, frankly, that we have more fuel in Australia today than we had on 28 February. The Opposition, of course, said there’d be shortages and there’d be all sorts of restrictions around Easter. We’ve come through that, working with the private sector, but it’s a struggle -
EPSTEIN: Can I drag you back to that? Donald Trump has said so many things. I think most people have stopped listening. Is it clear to you what his actual plan is?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, President Trump has said, and you’ve got to take it at face value, but also because of the consequences for the US economy as well, that he does want an end to the conflict. What we’ve got to do is make sure that that actually happens. We’ve had a number of declarations, as you know. I wake up in the morning and get a readout that says the Strait of Hormuz has opened. Then a couple of hours later it’s closed. Then it’s open, then it’s closed.
EPSTEIN: How many of those updates have you had today?
PRIME MINISTER: Two today. It makes it very difficult to deal with the consequences. And even though we’re not a party of the conflict, we’re not protagonists, it’s having a real impact here.
EPSTEIN: I’m just going to try one more time on the question, because it seems to me quite important. There is no more important military or diplomatic ally for Australia. Is the President of America – is his plan clear to you?
PRIME MINISTER: The clear plan that he has stated is twofold. One, stop Iran having access to a nuclear weapon. That’s obviously something that we support, given the nature of that regime. The second is an end to the conflict, and I think that is in the interests of people in the United States, but throughout the world.
EPSTEIN: Anthony Albanese is with you. I don’t need to tell you, PM, how much politics has changed since you won the election. Is it racist to say too many people are coming to Australia?
PRIME MINISTER: No, it’s not racist to have a discussion about migration. It should be one, though, that’s based upon fact rather than trying to stir up emotion and to stir up division. The truth is that there was an increase in migration post-COVID, which of course was always going to happen. But the truth is also that there’s been a 45 per cent reduction in net overseas migration since that peak -
EPSTEIN: Did the bump worry people? The increase that you say has dropped – did that cause concern for a lot of people, do you think?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, quite clearly that was an issue, but it is understandable when you have your borders closed and when they reopen. Part of that was Australians coming home. It’s tourists coming here, who are really important for our industry. It’s essential workers coming here as well, to provide support for businesses. And so that is part of what was occurring. But we’re being very conscious about getting the numbers down. They’re down to around 300,000. They’ll fall to 225,000 over the next couple of years. And that’s something that we’re very conscious about, getting the right number, but making sure as well that businesses that need essential workers are able to get them.
EPSTEIN: You mentioned people stirring emotion. Angus Taylor has a phrase that he’s been using a lot since April. I’ll just play that to you. Have a listen.
CLIP – ANGUS TAYLOR: The numbers are too high, and the standards are too low, and both must change.
EPSTEIN: Is that dealing in fact, or is that stirring up emotion?
PRIME MINISTER: Quite clearly, he has decided to compete with One Nation in that sphere. And Angus Taylor in a range of areas, for example, on permanent residents, the statements that were made during the Budget Reply, I don’t think are appropriate. Permanent residents, many of them, are not citizens because of the rules that are in place in the country of their birth -
EPSTEIN: So, is that a racist policy?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I’m not about using slogans. I’m saying that it’s not factually correct to say that someone who is an Australian permanent resident from a place like India or China, where you can’t have dual citizenship, who, for practical reasons, or indeed, there are so many people from the United Kingdom and from a range of countries who’ve been here almost their whole life, who aren’t citizens.
EPSTEIN: Am I asking you for a slogan? If you say people are stirring up emotion, I’m not asking you for a slogan. Am I not asking you for an important statement of values from a Prime Minister? I’d like you to be more specific than just saying “stirring up emotions”.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, you’re asking me for a provocative statement. What I’m about is turning down the heat, not dialling it up. And that’s what we need to do in this country, across the board. We have seen here in Victoria some of the language that’s used that is rather misogynistic –
EPSTEIN: The billboard last Friday.
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah. Against the Premier of Victoria. We’re seeing an increase in threats towards people in public life. Multiple people in courts. There’s one a week at the moment. And we need to turn the temperature down on debate. We need to be able to have discourse which is civil, where people are able to discuss things in a factual way. Put different views, sure. But do it in a way that has some respect, rather than the way that discourse is occurring, which is almost following what’s happening on social media. I mean, today is six months since the social media ban came into effect. One of the reasons why that was put in place is a recognition that for young people that was having a deleterious impact on their mental health and on a range of issues. Algorithms push people to be more and more extreme in their language. What I’m saying is we need to moderate our language, make sure that we can have civil disagreement and that’s the way that political discourse should occur.
EPSTEIN: When you say turn the temperature down – I might throw a question at you from our 774 Melbourne Facebook page. This one is from Walter. Tell me if it’s turning the temperature up or down, or not. Walter wants to ask this – "does the Prime Minister feel embarrassed leading a Government that has a smaller primary vote than a party with only two seats in the lower house?"
PRIME MINISTER: Look, primary votes are actually when people put numbers on ballot papers. That’s when a primary vote matters. And we were successful in the last election. I’m convinced that we will continue to be successful. We are now, as the Labor Party, the only mainstream party in Australia, as you have the three right-wing parties increasingly indistinguishable from each other -
EPSTEIN: But you’ve also presided over a huge increase in One Nation’s poll numbers. Is any of that on you?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it –
EPSTEIN: But that’s an open question, right? [INDISTINCT] I don’t know.
PRIME MINISTER: No, it is a reality that One Nation’s polling numbers have increased. That reflects a range of issues. I think it reflects people being frustrated with the system and whether the economy is working for them -
EPSTEIN: You’re the system, right? You’ve been there for more than four years. Are you partly responsible? It’s not just a little increase in the polls, right it’s a huge increase.
PRIME MINISTER: Bear in mind where we’re at as a party. Polls come and go. The polls show, if there was an election this Saturday, we would remain as a majority Government. So, that’s just a fact. Do we need to listen to people? Always, always. And what we’re about, one of the things we are doing is not making easy choices. The easy thing is to sit back and not make change. We’re delivering real change in the housing area. It’s a tough decision that we’ve made, like we made a tough decision to change the stage three tax cuts. We’re doing that for the right reasons, because when everyone seems to acknowledge that the housing system is broken for people and young people don’t have the same opportunity for home ownership that you and I had when we were younger, then you’ve got to do something about it. We’re doing something about it. It’s not easy, it’s controversial. We expected that. But it’s the right thing to do.
EPSTEIN: Alicia’s called from Sunshine with a question for the Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese. Alicia, go for it. What’s your question?
CALLER: Hi, Mr Prime Minister. I guess my question is also related. Do you think that in the whole immigration talk and the rise in One Nation’s popularity, there is a connection to race? Like, Raf’s question earlier was regarding immigration and the connection to racism. Do you think this popularity in One Nation would still be the same thing if we were seeing immigrants coming from a predominantly white country?
EPSTEIN: What do you think, Alicia – just before I ask the PM about that, because I’m trying to turn your statement into a question. What are you trying to say there?
CALLER: Yeah, sorry. I guess I think a lot of the talk about immigration right now, I mean I guess it’s focused more so on race, and that we’re seeing a lot of immigrants coming in from South-East Asia. And I don’t think a lot of people would be having this issue with mass immigration and all of the rallies if they were predominantly white immigrants coming in to the country.
EPSTEIN: Okay, Alicia, I’m going to leave it there. That’s a good place for the PM to pick up.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks, Alicia. Look, people will have different perspectives. Pauline Hanson has had a perspective for a long period of time. Her first speech spoke about Asians swamping Australia. I think the contribution of Vietnamese migrants, for example, here in Australia, I attended an event here at the museum on a Sunday just about a month ago, and it was a celebration of that contribution.
EPSTEIN: Is Alicia right – that it’s driven by the fact that a lot of people coming here aren’t white?
PRIME MINISTER: I think there are a range of factors which drive people’s views. Australians aren’t homogeneous. They don’t have one view. People will have a range of different views. But what I say is that we are stronger because of the diversity that is here in this country. The strength of our multiculturalism also means that we have connections with diaspora overseas. One of the things that happens when you go to places where we’ve needed their assistance recently, like Singapore, Malaysia, and Brunei, is how many of the Ministers you meet with studied at Melbourne Uni or Adelaide Uni or somewhere else. That’s a connection that we have to the fastest-growing region of the world, just to our north.
EPSTEIN: PM, do you use AI every day?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
EPSTEIN: You don’t use it at all?
PRIME MINISTER: I use it very rarely. I spend the day not on a device, Raf. I spend it talking to you, driving to the south-east suburbs after this, coming back to the MCG.
EPSTEIN: Not curious about it?
PRIME MINISTER: Of course I am.
EPSTEIN: But not enough to have it on your phone and use it much.
PRIME MINISTER: I am, but in terms of policy debates is what I’m interested in, including in AI.
EPSTEIN: I’m not accusing you of designing policy on AI. I am curious if you ever ask it a question and use it personally.
PRIME MINISTER: Look, I have. But by and large as well, I also have a bunch of people who work for me. That’s the truth, Raf. And when you’re Prime Minister, you’re not sitting around doing that, because I wish I had the time. I just got asked downstairs how much of the French Open I got to watch. None.
EPSTEIN: Are you going to the LA Socceroos game?
PRIME MINISTER: No.
EPSTEIN: Okay. Celia’s got a question for you from Marysville. This is related to the Budget. Celia, what’s your question?
CALLER: Negative gearing ceasing on holiday rentals. We were fortunate years ago to have a holiday rental ourselves. I wouldn’t have been able to rent it if negative gearing wasn’t available. But we made more money doing holiday rentals than permanent rentals. And we were able to use it when we needed to.
EPSTEIN: Because of negative gearing?
CALLER: Yes. And because a lot of tourism places had houses bought up during COVID and after COVID, now locals who need to work there cannot find rentals because they’re all Airbnbs on holiday.
EPSTEIN: I’m going to turn that into you’re not happy with the significant limits now on negative gearing. PM, Celia thinks that’s a problem.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, to Celia if she still has that property and it’s negatively geared, she can keep negatively gearing it. No change there. And the 50 per cent discount applies up until 1 July 2027, and then it’s on real gains going forward. What is more is that if someone who is a listener out there wants to invest in the future with negative gearing, they can. It just needs to be a new build, so that they’re not only building assets and wealth for themselves, they’re building assets and wealth for the nation as well, by helping to address supply.
EPSTEIN: Just a quick one, 30 seconds. David’s asking on the 774 Facebook page, "can we change the King’s Birthday holiday to the Neale Daniher public holiday?"
PRIME MINISTER: Well, I think that, with respect, His Majesty probably wouldn’t mind that, to be honest. He’s a very compassionate man. And I’m not sure if he’s aware of Neale Daniher’s legacy, but I’m sure he’d be very supportive of Neale. I’m not sure about the date, but –
EPSTEIN: There’s no possibility they change it to his name?
PRIME MINISTER: One of the things about Neale Daniher is that his legacy will live on, such an inspiration for people right throughout the country. But I think more and more he’ll be known as an inspiration throughout the world.
EPSTEIN: Thank you for coming in.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks.