MARK GIBSON, HOST: Anthony Albanese, good morning.
ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER: Good to be with you.
GIBSON: How's it gone? If it's a budget roadshow trying to sell the budget, fair to say there's been a very mixed reaction.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, there always is to budgets, of course, but we've been explaining our position of reform. This is a budget aimed fairly and squarely at delivering hope for young Australians that they’ll have the opportunity to get into their first home. I don't want their dream of home ownership to be just that: a dream, not a reality. I want young people to be able to aspire to the security that comes from having a roof over your head. And yesterday I was with the Premier here in Perth, right in the city at a 29-story building that two years ago I stood with the Premier and it was just a block of dirt, effectively, on a very hot day. And now the outside's all done, now it just requires a fit-out. Now that will provide a home for over 200 West Australians, including social housing, including some private rentals as well as some private ownership as well.
GIBSON: It's fair to say you were there a couple of years ago and it was just being started. I gotta admit, that's a building that’s been promised for years and years and years and it's finally getting there –
PRIME MINISTER: And we've delivered it.
GIBSON: Is it too little, too late when it comes to the housing crisis in this country?
PRIME MINISTER: We need to throw everything at it. And that's why we've got our Housing Australia Future Fund, which is about social housing and affordable housing for essential workers. Why we've got our Help to Buy Scheme, which is based upon the WA Shared Equity Scheme. We've got Build to Rent, which is about private rentals. And we've got a 5 per cent Home Deposit Scheme that now has benefited, more than 250,000 homes have been purchased from first home buyers since we came to office. And the changes that we're putting forward here is to give young people a fair crack. So, if people want to have existing investments in negative gearing, no change there. But if people want to have a new investment in a negatively geared home to build their own assets and wealth for the future, then by being a new build, they're also building the assets and wealth for the nation. So that change is, I think, a positive one.
GIBSON: Apart from housing, have there been some unintended consequences of this budget? The 30 per cent tax on discretionary trusts is causing a lot of angst. I might actually just play you this little clip from a caller to Olly's program yesterday. That's why I use the words unintended consequence. You tell me. This was Harris from Kardinya.
HARRIS, LISTENER: I've been using my trust for a number of years to distribute the funds to not-for-profit organisations that don't qualify for tax deductible donations. If I give $1000 to four different charities, that $1000 now will only be $700. So, times that by four, that $300 times four means I'm going to be giving $1200 to the ATO and only $700 to each of those four entities. Is that correct? So, he's saying he's giving more to the tax man than the intended charities.
PRIME MINISTER: I'm reluctant to give tax advice on the run without, you know, that's not a very good thing to do. But I'm not sure what change he's referring to. If he's talking about making donations to entities that currently aren't tax deductible, I'm not sure what he thinks the change is which is there. What we are doing is taxing more equally the income earned from working, which is how most people overwhelmingly earn their dollars, with income earned from assets. Now that is a reform that is fair. The reason why 30 per cent is chosen is that's the tax rate between $45,000 and $135,000, which is where most workers are - that is their marginal tax rate. But some of, I would say that a whole range of the campaigns that have been run aren't based upon facts of what is actually occurring. We will have the legislation in the Parliament in a couple of weeks’ time. People will be able to assess that.
GIBSON: Could that be delayed, though? I think you hinted at that, didn't you, for the discretionary trust?
PRIME MINISTER: This is an example, Mark and, not your fault, but a range of things to have been said as if this is announcements. We announced on budget night that there would be, when it comes to capital gains tax in particular, that there'd be consultation with startups and with businesses that required that to be worked through and that's why we didn't introduce the legislation during Budget week, which is what we would do if it was just a change to income tax rates.
GIBSON: So, no second heart with all this? You're not thinking of changing any of this?
PRIME MINISTER: No. And we also said that on trusts that that legislation would be later on, wouldn't be in the first tranche because Treasury want to have a consultation process on that. There's nothing new in that. Was there on budget night there for all to see.
GIBSON: Small businesses, though, that seems to be your latest battle. They're running memes on social media, they're doing all sorts of things. But small businesses, when it comes to these trusts, it's not just families, it's businesses who are saying this is not fair on us.
PRIME MINISTER: Well, let's be clear about the small business campaign. The first is of course, that the memes that have been run, you can tell that they're artificial intelligence because they're so flattering of me in terms of the images which are there.
GIBSON: Well, they're hard to pick, that's the other thing.
PRIME MINISTER: But let's be very clear, what we're doing when it comes to small business. We're replacing the 50 per cent capital gains discount with a discount that's based on inflation, but that's only realised when a business is sold, when an asset is realised. It's not an ongoing annual year thing or anything else. And most small businesses pay little or no capital gains tax when they sell. And we're making no changes, no changes to the small business CGT capital gains tax exemptions which are currently available. None whatsoever. So if, I think there are, you know, campaigns being run from the right-wing parties and their allies to distort some of what's being offered, we'll talk that through and that's why we are taking every opportunity to explain what the changes are. We'll continue to do that as well.
GIBSON: What about grandfathering family trust like you have with negative gearing?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, we are, in terms of existing trust arrangements will still be allowed. We're allowing as well a process right up to 2028 is when we've said as well it will come in, which is why we don't need the immediate legislation. And what we're doing with trusts as well when it comes to discretionary trusts, one of the ways that that's used is to minimise tax so that you pay out a different amount according to the recipient, being less taxable, if you like. It's a way of having income splitting effectively. And average workers can't income split. They're paying their bit. And that's why you need a fair tax system as well that doesn't allow someone who's a nurse working their guts out, making a difference, trying to save for a home, trying to get by on, you know, not a very high wage, but they're paying more tax than someone who is able to use vehicles to minimise their tax completely. That's why, that's what these changes are aimed at. Just having more fairness in the system for the overwhelming majority of people.
GIBSON: Well, they're aimed at that. Whether or not you achieve that seems to be still up for dispute. We're just about out of time, but I do want to hit a couple of other issues with you. You announced late yesterday we got some more jet fuel and fertiliser heading for Perth.
PRIME MINISTER: We do. Fertiliser coming to Perth, a substantial amount as well, and it's so important as we go forward. And jet fuel, three cargoes from China adding up to around about 600,000 barrels, which will make an enormous difference. Of course, 95 per cent of people who come into this great state fly in rather than drive in, and that's why it's particularly important. And I thank, it arose from a conversation I had with Premier Li of China. It shows the relationships that we've built and repaired with China, with Singapore, with Brunei, Malaysia, South Korea, Japan, are putting us in good stead. And Indonesia is where a lot of the fertiliser has come from as well.
GIBSON: The global oil price is dipping a bit, but our fuel prices are still going up. The cut in excise will end at the end of June. Are you concerned about this, that it's going to be a long haul before things get any better?
PRIME MINISTER: Absolutely concerned. And that's why we continue to call for a de-escalation. We want to see an end to the conflict in the Middle East. We're not immune from the impact. And I think when I was last in here, I would have very much taken the result, which is that there is more jet fuel in Australia than there was on February 28th. More diesel and more petrol. That is due to the hard work that we've put in place, but also the hard work of Australians who are doing the right thing. The hoarding and the taking more than people need has stopped. We campaigned very strongly on that with the Every Little Bit Helps campaign. And Australians are doing their bit, but the government, we're doing our bit as well.
GIBSON: What's your feel? This is a bit of a random question, I know, because you're not going to give away any national secrets or any diplomacy. But this war that's been going on for a couple of months now, you speak to Donald Trump or his people, or you do as much as you can. Is this going to drag on for months and years? Like, what's your gut feel, Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER: I wish, Mark, I could say that I have intelligence that I'm keeping to myself, but the truth is that it's really uncertain. It's volatile. It depends upon the negotiations which are taking place. It's clear that, you know, there's a change in position from day to day.
GIBSON: From day to day it keeps changing.
PRIME MINISTER: So, two days ago, President Trump was saying he was going to bomb. Yesterday he said he wasn't going to bomb. Today, he's saying, this morning we awake to he's considering it again.
GIBSON: It's a crazy way to run things, isn't it?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, it's very difficult for the world and we're impacted by it. And inflation is rising right around the world, including in the United States. But we're coming through this better than most countries. I mean, in the Philippines, in Sri Lanka, for example, they're having a compulsory public holiday once a week to conserve fuel. And there are shortages in our region as well. Diesel's really important, for example, in the Pacific, and that's having an impact on some of the smaller Pacific island nations. But, you know, we're doing our bit. And the important thing about fertiliser, of course, is that it's providing our farmers with more certainty to be able to plant crops together with the diesel supplies that we've been able to secure, which has meant people can go about the business in the resources sector or in agriculture, where it's so important.
GIBSON: Just on another issue before you go, the ABC is reporting this morning that six more Australian women, along with their children and grandchildren, look likely to leave a camp in Syria within days. So, we know those ISIS brides arrived recently, the four women and nine children. So, are you aware of this yet? That it looks like more could be on the move and heading our way?
PRIME MINISTER: Well, the US State Department has been very keen on people leaving those camps. We are not providing any assistance and I note that on the last journey back there was an ABC person on the plane. There wasn't a government person on the plane because we weren't providing any assistance and won’t. If there have been any breaches of Australian law, they will face the full force of the law which is what happened to people when they arrived back just a couple of weeks ago.
GIBSON: Alright, let's just finish with a bit of light-heartedness on the text line. The text line goes on with all the, ‘he doesn't tell the truth’ and ‘the budget's rubbish’ and all that. But we've heard all those accusations. What about this one from Tim, a couple of questions for the big guy. Can you use your executive powers to rename the Perth Bears, yes or no? I don't know what he wants them renamed to.
PRIME MINISTER: No. What's wrong with the Perth Bears? It's a bit of heritage for the old North Sydney Bears.
GIBSON: I don't know.
PRIME MINISTER: Black and red are good colours for a footy team.
GIBSON: He's got a follow up question. You've spent long enough in WA, are you a Dockers or an Eagles man?
PRIME MINISTER: I'm a Hawk.
GIBSON: I mean you're a Hawks man, so that's just -
PRIME MINISTER: I'm a Hawk. I did go to, I think it might have been the first AFLW game here at the stadium between the Dockers and the Eagles and I stayed neutral. Because I spent a lot of time in Western Australia –
GIBSON: He’s on the fence. He's on the fence.
PRIME MINISTER: I know that's a fight I don't want to get involved with. Just like the Port versus Crows fight, I stay right out of it.
GIBSON: Well, your Hawks have been kicked out of Tasmania yesterday with the new team coming.
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, I think that's unfortunate because, you know, they've made a home there in Launceston and I think the more footy that's played at different venues the better. There was a Rugby league game here that was very successful, a double header about a month ago and I'm looking forward to watching the Perth Bears during one of the trips over here. It'll be a good thing, a good thing for WA.
GIBSON: All right, well, Prime Minister, where is next? Whistlestop tour of Perth comes to an end. You're heading off to the Prime Ministerial jet.
PRIME MINISTER: Yeah, away I go back towards the east coast again. And then I'm, I've got a busy time. I'm going to be in Wollongong, and then Nowra, and then Melbourne, and then Canberra. So, it's a busy time.
GIBSON: It's a busy job. Thanks for stopping by the ABC studios.
PRIME MINISTER: Thanks so much.